4.11: If-Then-Else

[J-Sun]

Lot to like and a lot to hate in this one.

I may have missed a tell but I felt kind of ripped off by the first in the Groundhog Day sequence though it was fine in itself. Then I acclimated to the GD concept and enjoyed the first couple of Harold/Machine chess scenes. I think they replayed way too much stuff though - a simple "Groves tells the folks the plan" would have been a good reset point instead of the "we need a plan - apples explode - more comments - etc" loop. And speaking of that sarcastic paraphrase, I loved the metafictional "fill in the dialog" dialog when the machine needed to economize for time. Oddly, the simulations depicted everyone but Fusco getting killed, I think, so he'll probably be the next to really die. But, among many problems - no one, including the machine knew about either Shaw showing up or about the stupid override button?

I dunno. Random thoughts. Next-to-last random thought and with massive spoilers if you haven't seen the episode: I'm getting real tired of the blonde chick slo-mo tracking Shaw with her weapon and how the hell did Shaw not hit the blonde chick when she fired her two shots (nice slo-mo action)? And if Shaw's really dead I'm going to be royally pissed. The only thing that could make me pisseder would be the Groves simulation. But...

"next week" promo spoiler

Spoiler

I said to myself, since they showed blondie moving her gun to Shaw's head and Shaw looking at her, "Ah, she'll just position the gun but won't pull the trigger, taking her to the hospital because she has information Samaritan needs so she's not really dead" (just like the last time in the department store) and I stuck around for the promos (which I usually avoid) just for the first second where it showed Reese demanding where Shaw was vs., say, Groves mourning and then I turned it off. So I dunno if they'll find her and rescue her but I've got reasonable grounds for hope. So I'm figuring she'll be fine.

Weird that they do this this way - didn't they kill Carter at mid-season last year? And this casualty comes at the end of a show full of fake casualties and here, presumably, is another. So they have credibility when it comes to shockingly killing off main characters but they undercut that credibility in this episode by simulating everyone's death. Anyway - damn sure an "interesting" episode, at least in the Chinese curse sense of the word.

BTW, please keep any discussion of the part of next week's promo that I didn't see in spoiler tags for my sake, at least.

 

[Lenny]

I may have missed a tell but I felt kind of ripped off by the first in the Groundhog Day sequence though it was fine in itself.

You're not alone there. I have to say, though, that the simulations were effective in building the tension - when our four heroes finally got to play, I was actually worried for them.

Also, whoever picks out the music for episodes does a brilliant job at times! Took me a while to recognise what started playing at the beginning of each simulation, but I got there: The Glitch Mob - Fortune Days.

 

[REBerg]

A current Entertainment Weekly (http://www.ew.com/ew/tv/)
interview story explains the shocking development contained in this episode, but leaves the Big Question unanswered.

(spoiler alert: read after watching the episode)

 

[J-Sun]

A current Entertainment Weekly (http://www.ew.com/ew/tv/)
interview story explains the shocking development contained in this episode, but leaves the Big Question unanswered.

(spoiler alert: read after watching the episode)

That link doesn't take me to anything relevant today - can't find anything on a site search, either.

Good ear, Lenny - most show music, especially instrumental usually just slides by me but that is pretty cool. PoI does so many things so well.

 

[Dave]

Sorry, but I didn't like the Groundhog Day idea. It has really been done to death within the SF genre (Star Trek, Stargate, Edge of Tomorrow) and I found this episode even a little boring (probably because, as J-Sun said, they re-showed far more than was necessary in each loop.) I'm also concerned - when shows start doing this kind of episode they have usually run out of ideas and are about to Jump The Shark. Next we'll have the Halloween/vampire episode, then the Hitler clones episode, then the one where they are really writers in an alternative reality, and eventually we'll end up with Spock's Brain.

Maybe I was expecting more when the Cold War turned heated, but only getting a shoot out in a basement and a laptop containing a program that can reverse the whole Stock Market crash was a little poor. Finally, have to agree with J-Sun to ask why the machine had no "Option" that included the override button or the agents arriving early.

I do hope next week is better. We already had the cliffhanger with a gun pointed at Shaw once, so I'm not happy they did that over again. All in all, I'd place it well down the list of favourite episodes.

Link to that article here: http://insidetv.ew.com/2015/01/07/person-of-interest-shaw-dead-root-kiss/

 

[ZombieWife]

It's interesting that on one board I frequent, people are freaking out in the best possible way over this episode. And here, it's like a warm bucket of "meh."

I, for one, was dumbfounded by this episode. I really felt it was some of the best writing on genre television today.

First, I don't consider "Groundhog day" to be a trope worth mentioning. This is how the Machine thinks. It's pretty straightforward. It's not a reset or a magical, supernatural manipulation of time. It's a machine running through scenarios.

Second, I love that the machine has a sense of humor. The "insert random, time-saving dialogue" moments cracked me up hardcore.

Third, I'm glad that

Spoiler

Fusco's

advice was the correct advice--even though he said to "shoot em between the eyes." It shows how the Machine thinks of this particular character and how fascinated the Machine is with human nature.

Fourth, I nearly peed with someone joined the group and the "chance of survival" began to shoot up. I fist pumped the air.

Then I cried.

I loved it. Top notch, imho.

 

[J-Sun]

First, I don't consider "Groundhog day" to be a trope worth mentioning. This is how the Machine thinks. It's pretty straightforward. It's not a reset or a magical, supernatural manipulation of time. It's a machine running through scenarios.

You're right, of course, when it comes to the (non-)metaphysics of it, but I was speaking of the narrative strategy - it was definitely a loop in which no price had to paid until the end but a way toward the optimal (or least non-optimal) strategy was groped for through the course of the story. So, leaving aside the means, it's structurally identical to GD and all the other "narrative loop" stories. But it lacked GD's cohesion and skill in portraying the "spiritual awakening" as the Machine did figure out (which it must have known for years, since Harold explained it years ago) that people aren't pieces and sticking together is a good thing - but then flubbed it and ended up with a pawn self-sacrificing anyway. And that's no pawn and there'd better be no sacrifice. But if there isn't then it was an even iffier episode.

(Speaking of - did anyone find the "queen" sequence weird? I thought sure it would be Groves/Root in that sequence but it was Reese.)

I mean, I'm not saying it's bad - it sure kept me glued to the set and I'll sure be glued there next week but, yeah, it wasn't my favorite.

Dave: Farscape did one, too. Maybe that makes the trope come out the other side - we should fault PoI if it didn't do one because it's obligatory. They'd get their science-fiction-show license revoked if they didn't do it.

Thanks for that link - I clicked on it and it immediately looked too spoilery for comfort but I'll read it after next week.

 

[ZombieWife]

I've seen the technique before, yes, and it usually feels like an obvious device. For me, this has made more sense than any other time I can remember. And it was executed very well. Because other narratives have used this (and perhaps not done as well), doesn't mean I hold THIS one accountable for those non-successes.

I just find it a very small quibble. And "trope" talk in general is a turn-off for me, because it's kind of the go-to terminology for everyone to say, "Yeah, I've seen this before somewhere." And that's my issue. Nobody else's. Suffice to say, I can't stand going to Rotten Tomatoes anymore. Because someone has to say something about a trope. Or a cliche. Haha.

 

[J-Sun]

I did have one late-breaking thought that the PoI folks or the network(?!) deserves great credit for - if it wasn't just a fluke of scheduling. They could have aired this episode before the winter break and I'd have been in agony. Doing it after, I only have a week of suffering.

 

[ZombieWife]

I know. I was thinking that same thing. I'm SO glad they showed this after the break.

 

[markpud]

I really enjoyed the episode and the first simulation run ending in Reese's demise gave me a shock. The chess flashbacks were nicely done too, they love to throw in the trivia which I like, in regard to the Queen's role in chess and the Queen of Spain (IIRC)'s demands for power!

Once we were into the scenario run through's yes they did spend perhaps too much time, but considering it was only about 5 minutes of onscreen action each time it helped to fill out the episode in a creative and entertaining way before team Samaritan comes steam-rolling in!

Highlights for me were the Fusco/Root kiss - not sure why the Machine would factor that into its simulation, but it could explain the 800,000 odd options it was running through which otherwise essentially boil down to who goes left and who goes right! And the meta dialogue distilling each character's essence.

In all a well executed episode with a big kick in the tail. The override button being a hole in the plot perhaps, as the Machine knew everything about getting the lift back online but didn't know that?

Spoiler

Once I read that Sarah Shahi was pregnant then I more or less ruled out it being a fake-out with us not directly seeing that last gunshot. Nolan seems keen to leave the door open in that interview but it seems unfeasible that she could reappear down the line? The only way I could imagine is if they faked that last gunshot and Samaritan keeps her locked up while the rest of the team think she's dead. But if they're not able to use Sarah to film any scenes to that effect then it would end up being a series of flashbacks when she returns, which isn't ideal.

Now that Fusco has been clocked by Miss Samaritan (I forget her name sorry) that means he's as much at risk as the rest of the team. Surley he and John can no longer return to the NYPD, and Fusco's son is at risk now too.

 

[REBerg]

J-Sun: Sorry about the link. At the time I posted it, you could scroll down to the POI interview story. Didn't want to post the direct link due to its overly long, descriptive label, which may have given too much away for anyone who had not watched the episode.

How does one use the “spoiler alert” function, or is that controlled by site admin people?

 

[markpud]

Hi @REBerg you just type [ SPOILER ] and [ /SPOILER ] (without the spaces), or access it from the "insert" button

 

[Dave]

REBerg: Just to add, within this thread (which has the episode title) you can talk freely about anything in this episode or any previous episode without worrying about spoilers. Anyone reading this thread should fully expect that. What you cannot do is spoil future episodes or give information that has been leaked about future events.

For anyone who is unsure whether to click the link, then that particular interview didn't actually tell me if Sarah Shahi was leaving or not, and so by implication, it doesn't tell me if Shaw dies or not. It did contain other things though and it mentioned another interview so probably better not to click if you want the secret kept until next week.

 

[J-Sun]

J-Sun: Sorry about the link. At the time I posted it, you could scroll down to the POI interview story. Didn't want to post the direct link due to its overly long, descriptive label, which may have given too much away for anyone who had not watched the episode.

No problem. I see what you were aiming at now, though: avoiding spoilers is always good.

 

[REBerg]

markpud, Dave, J-Sun: Thanks for the pointers. My posting proficiency may improve with time.

 

[J-Sun]

Thanks for that link - I clicked on it and it immediately looked too spoilery for comfort but I'll read it after next week.

Well, I didn't actually read it until just now and it was still too spoilery. But I was doing a great job of denial and all it really did was make that impossible.

Spoiler: Spoilers through 4.13 (and arguably beyond, from an absolutist viewpoint)

I was thinking of an arc in which Shaw could be being mind-controlled - how destroyed would Groves (and we) be if Shaw was still alive but turned into the enemy and maybe even Groves herself would have to kill her or be killed? But it looks like we were thrown a "she's alive" bone and that'll be it for at least a long time - no regular Shaw for the foreseeable future. But hey, alive is good, at least in theory!