What If Nazi Germany Had Recognized The Potential Of Jets Early On?

[BAYLOR]

The Henkel 178 prototype flew successfully in 1939 just before Germany launched its attack on Poland. Fortunately for everyone, they saw little initial value in Jet propulsion and when they did put the ME 262 into production and action, They had already lost the war. But what if they had seen the possibilities? what if they had put jet fighters like the Me 262 in production a few years sooner ? How do you think it would have impacted the outcome of the second world war ?

And as an added Question The Arrado Jet Bomber?

 

[Huttman]

Nun, es würde viel anders gewesen sein, das ist sicher. Wir würden jetzt sprechen Deutsch, für einen. Essen viel mehr Sauerkraut als gut.
Hagel die Hälfte Schnurrbart Kerl.

 

[paranoid marvin]

They would have won the Battle of Britain and England would have been defeated.

The US would be unable to have a base on this side of the Atlantic and with the ability of the Germans to quickly have the ability to reach American via landbases in the UK. With no real possbilities of defeating Germany, and with no real incentive to do so, there would have been either an alliance or at least an uneasy truce.

There would still have been war with Russia of course, but having only to fight on a single front the Blitzkrieg, and perhaps more importantly been able to go in at least 6 months earlier before Winter set in, they would easily have dealt with the Soviets.

What would have been more interesting (and thankfully didn't occur) would have been if Germany had developed an atom bomb in 1944. With the war almost lost, Hitler's real 'wonder weapon' could have been a game changer.

 

[BAYLOR]

They would have won the Battle of Britain and England would have been defeated.

The US would be unable to have a base on this side of the Atlantic and with the ability of the Germans to quickly have the ability to reach American via landbases in the UK. With no real possbilities of defeating Germany, and with no real incentive to do so, there would have been either an alliance or at least an uneasy truce.

There would still have been war with Russia of course, but having only to fight on a single front the Blitzkrieg, and perhaps more importantly been able to go in at least 6 months earlier before Winter set in, they would easily have dealt with the Soviets.

What would have been more interesting (and thankfully didn't occur) would have been if Germany had developed an atom bomb in 1944. With the war almost lost, Hitler's real 'wonder weapon' could have been a game changer.

They did have a prototype The Horton Flying Wing very late in the War.

 

[The Ace]

In some ways, they did - the He 280 (which first flew on its engines in 1941, and as a glider at the time of the BoB) was replaced by the superior Me 262.

The problems still lay in getting the engines to work, building enough engines, and developing airframes to exploit those engines.

It took three years to bring the Me 262 into production - not an excessive total by anyone's standards - abut the same as it took us to get the Gloster Meteor flying, and while the advocates of jets were certainly vocal, there were many real problems competing for resources.

Imagine standing at your border and telling an invading army, "Could you come back in 6 months ? We're a bit short of weapons at the moment, but the new generation to repel you should be ready by then."

Germany was, apart from anything else, fighting a war on two fronts and trying to keep two vast armies equipped and supplied, so the resources which could've gone on the jet aircraft and their enormous potential, simply couldn't be spared.

 

[Null_Zone]

Life isn't like a game of civilization where one side gets jet aircraft and everyone else has to wait until they get on the right tech tree.

At several times during the war aircraft types were introduced that completely outclassed their opponents, work around were sought, New tactics, counter measures and improved designs worked upon. The allies have plenty of resources and brains that can be thrown at a problem and were well on the way to their own jet designs.

Throw in the German raw material shortages and general Nazi incompetence and the allies would never be facing that many decent jets. Adam tosses book Wages of Destruction goes into wonderful detail on the Nazi economy and it's shortfalls.

 

[Vertigo]

I don't think it would have made much difference but I also think the initial premise is wrong. The German jet fighter was not slow to come into production purely because of its potential not being seen. Referring to the ME 262:

Design work started before World War II began, but engine problems and top-level interference kept the aircraft from operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944.

So partly top level interference but also partly production problems. Also even once it went into service it suffered many reliability problems with the engine. Then when it did come into service the first allied jet the Gloster Meteor (contrary to popular belief) went into service at almost the same time. It had been in development for a similar length of time though wasn't quite as good as the ME 262.

The main reason I don't think it would have made that big a difference is that (1) it is unlikely even with full 'top-level' support that a jet aircraft could have gone into production in time to affect the outcome of the Battle of Britain. And (2) my understanding is that the main reason Germany 'lost' the Battle of Britain was Hitler's decision to switch bombing from the airfields to the cities. One of the most staggeringly bad military decision of the war (amongst many others of course). At that time our air power was almost completely wiped out. The breather the switch gave us made all the difference. Bad for British civilians but it saved the RAF.

 

[Overread]

Chances are if Hitler had just been banned from the Warroom the war would have gone very differently!

Technological superiority over your enemies can be a major game changer; but at the same time you've not only got to have superior weapons, but also put them into production. For a large war machine that means mass production - so your new technology has to be reliable enough for batch production. Not only that but the wider the circle of knowing individuals there are the more chance there is for a leak of information.

Certainly if Germany could have mastered the skies with an even more superior air force they could have taken the UK earlier which would have basically destroyed that front of the war. America wouldn't have gotten involved save to attack Japan, whilst most of the other western European countries would have likely sought alliance or other diplomatic approaches to avoid being invaded themselves.

The Russian front however might or might not have fallen - its a front we don't hear as much of and yet was critical in the war. Similarly whilst the Russian army was woefully under equipped the country itself has vast resources. With the right drive that front could have been a stalemate for years to come - although if we assume that the allies lose nothing would then have likely threatened Germany with their A-bomb development. In fact with less of an avenue for scientists and others to leave Germany they might have even had an accelerated progress.

It's also very likely that Abombs would have been seen as the ideal weapon to beat a country as vast as Russia

 

[BAYLOR]

I don't think it would have made much difference but I also think the initial premise is wrong. The German jet fighter was not slow to come into production purely because of its potential not being seen. Referring to the ME 262:

Design work started before World War II began, but engine problems and top-level interference kept the aircraft from operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944.

So partly top level interference but also partly production problems. Also even once it went into service it suffered many reliability problems with the engine. Then when it did come into service the first allied jet the Gloster Meteor (contrary to popular belief) went into service at almost the same time. It had been in development for a similar length of time though wasn't quite as good as the ME 262.

The main reason I don't think it would have made that big a difference is that (1) it is unlikely even with full 'top-level' support that a jet aircraft could have gone into production in time to affect the outcome of the Battle of Britain. And (2) my understanding is that the main reason Germany 'lost' the Battle of Britain was Hitler's decision to switch bombing from the airfields to the cities. One of the most staggeringly bad military decision of the war (amongst many others of course). At that time our air power was almost completely wiped out. The breather the switch gave us made all the difference. Bad for British civilians but it saved the RAF.

German intelligence underestimated the importance of Radar stations .

 

[paranoid marvin]

German intelligence underestimated the importance of Radar stations .

Well, they did bomb them so they knew they were a threat. What I'm saying though is that the benefit of radar was to direct the fighters to where the Germans were heading. Against jets, they simply wouldn't have enough time to do so; they would have dropped their bombs and been halfway home. And if they HAD got there in time, the vast difference in power between jet fighters and propeller based aircraft would have meant that they would have been suicide missions for the RAF.

I know they had jet fighters in the pipeline at that time, but what we are theorising here is if the Germans had fully functioning squadrons of them in 1940.

 

[Null_Zone]

German Intelligence was often acting directly against Germany's best interest. Sometimes deliberate, sometimes just so comically inept it's impossible to tell whether it was deliberate.

Besides, German radar was actually better than the British, they just didn't have it integrated into a unified air command. There were other weak links they could have gone after. Or looking at the casualty rates they needed to achieve, simply sat on the defensive and let the RAF attack them with their hilariously outraged tactics.

But destroying the RAF doesn't make Sea lion a goer. A couple of destroyers cruising the channel would have swamped the invasion barges with their wake alone and at this point the Luftwaffe had a terrible record against warships.

 

[BAYLOR]

German Intelligence was often acting directly against Germany's best interest. Sometimes deliberate, sometimes just so comically inept it's impossible to tell whether it was deliberate.

Besides, German radar was actually better than the British, they just didn't have it integrated into a unified air command. There were other weak links they could have gone after. Or looking at the casualty rates they needed to achieve, simply sat on the defensive and let the RAF attack them with their hilariously outraged tactics.

But destroying the RAF doesn't make Sea lion a goer. A couple of destroyers cruising the channel would have swamped the invasion barges with their wake alone and at this point the Luftwaffe had a terrible record against warships.

There was also the problem of Fuel . The RAF was fighting much closer to their fuel supply then the Luffewaffe. The ME 109 was almost as good a plane as the Spitfire but having spent fuel to get to the battle, they were at a bit of a disadvantage.

The Germans didn't have much in the way of a Surface fleet to defend any kind of invasion fleet.

Back on topic. The biggest problem with the ME 262 was the engines were subject o lots of breakdowns. Perhaps they might have been able to solve some of the technical problems had they gotten them into production earlier? No way to know for sure on that one And the Me 262's were not particularly fuel efficient , they had relatively limited range. None of the early jets fuel efficient.

Interestingly Henkel came up with a fighter before the ME 262 but for some reason Henkel couldn't get much backing from the german government.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I don't think Hitler ever would have invaded Britain. I think he firstly expected England to side with him, then to capitulate after Dunkirk. After this, blasting the RAF out of the sky, destroying English cities and having a flotilla or barges threatening invasion, I think he expected them to finally surrender.

Crippling the RAF would have prevented his troops being splattered all over the South coast beaches, but as has been said they still had no answer to Britain's naval force. And just like Napoleon , he knew that barges, even escorted barges, would have no chance against our fleet - at least not without suffering horrendous losses.

No, I think it was all a bluff to get us to finally surrender. But what Hitler didn't realise was that Churchill was just as fanatical as he was, and would rather have destroyed the country rather than surrender to the Germans.

 

[BAYLOR]

I don't think Hitler ever would have invaded Britain. I think he firstly expected England to side with him, then to capitulate after Dunkirk. After this, blasting the RAF out of the sky, destroying English cities and having a flotilla or barges threatening invasion, I think he expected them to finally surrender.

Crippling the RAF would have prevented his troops being splattered all over the South coast beaches, but as has been said they still had no answer to Britain's naval force. And just like Napoleon , he knew that barges, even escorted barges, would have no chance against our fleet - at least not without suffering horrendous losses.

No, I think it was all a bluff to get us to finally surrender. But what Hitler didn't realise was that Churchill was just as fanatical as he was, and would rather have destroyed the country rather than surrender to the Germans.

Ive always found that part a bit curious, Britain has a large and very powerful Navy, at that time the best navy in the world , So why didn't Germany build a Surface fleet to match Britain?

 

[Overread]

Probably because Germany was more focused upon the ground war in Europe and Russia. Remember even though they wanted to take the UK and master the seas they still had a massive ground war going on which likely was a major drain on their resources.

Also don't forget whilst the planes of the time had bad luck against warships, if the Germans had functional and mass production scale jet aircraft; just as they'd be more effective against air to air they'd also be more effective against air to ground and air to sea. It would have taken time for the allies to try and counter and existing AA of the time might not even have been up to the task.

Germany did build some very powerful warships, along with Uboats, but they didn't really want a pitched battle against the British Navy; instead they went after the supply ships from America.


Remember Germany didn't want war with the UK; it was only because they went through Poland that the UK entered the war (or at least found enough excuse to do so). Hitler did hope for an alliance which might explain some of the more strange tactics chosen. Also whilst they shifted from airfields to cities don't forget that a big part of invasion is breaking the moral not just the weapons of your opponents. I suspect their hope was that continued bombardment of civilian areas would turn civilians against the idea of supporting a war which is "overseas" and might have made the UK pull out.

 

[ralphkern]

It would have been a tougher fight, but an easier war. The Germans produced hundreds of ME262's, for example, but simply couldn't fuel them or maintain them.

On a per unit basis they were far more expensive than our cost of destroying them. Sometimes that math was horrific for us, the finest overall fighter of WW2, the Mustang, was sliced and diced by them at times. Something like a 12 /1 ratio at times, yet the weight of numbers was on our side once the Americans got involved. The Hawker Tempest was pretty good versus the early jets as well.

If they had redirected their efforts into tried and tested fighter/bombers and smaller incremental steps at improving them over complete seed changes we would have struggled far more (although still a win I suspect for us).

In relation to the surface fleet that stems from coming out of the Treaty of Versailles. They were allowed a very limited navy. The lead time on warship construction is very long, especially the Capital ships which in the opening stages of WW2 were considered the way to go, before the Pacific war that was. I doubt Britain would have tolerated a significant German naval construction program and would have taken steps, through sanction or direct action (e.g. destroying) to curtail it.

 

[Aquilonian]

There would still have been war with Russia of course, but having only to fight on a single front the Blitzkrieg, and perhaps more importantly been able to go in at least 6 months earlier before Winter set in, they would easily have dealt with the Soviets.

They would not have dealt so "easily" with the Russian people, once they realised that so far as the Nazis were concerned this was a racial war. If Hitler had only had to fight on one front, and the USSR hadn't recieved supplies of American lorries etc through Murmansk, with an RAF squadron protecting the port, for sure they'd have lost even more than their actual 20 million dead. But the USSR is a big place- they could have pulled back far beyond the Urals. The Russians have always had an immense capacity for endurance, and Stalin was an even more ruthless leader than Hitler.

Most of WW2 was fought on the Eastern Front, and Stalingrad decided the outcome of the War. Ordinary British people like my parents knew this at the time- it's the post-war generation, with their knowledge of the War derived from Hollywood, who have forgotten. In fact, I've known fairly intelligent 30-something Brits who were actually surprised to learn that the UK's armed forces lost as many war dead as the USA's, and that we fought for more than two years longer.

 

[BAYLOR]

They would not have dealt so "easily" with the Russian people, once they realised that so far as the Nazis were concerned this was a racial war. If Hitler had only had to fight on one front, and the USSR hadn't recieved supplies of American lorries etc through Murmansk, with an RAF squadron protecting the port, for sure they'd have lost even more than their actual 20 million dead. But the USSR is a big place- they could have pulled back far beyond the Urals. The Russians have always had an immense capacity for endurance, and Stalin was an even more ruthless leader than Hitler.

Most of WW2 was fought on the Eastern Front, and Stalingrad decided the outcome of the War. Ordinary British people like my parents knew this at the time- it's the post-war generation, with their knowledge of the War derived from Hollywood, who have forgotten. In fact, I've known fairly intelligent 30-something Brits who were actually surprised to learn that the UK's armed forces lost as many war dead as the USA's, and that we fought for more than two years longer.

If Germany had taken the oilfields to the South, That might have knocked the Russians out of the war.

 

[paranoid marvin]

If Germany had taken the oilfields to the South, That might have knocked the Russians out of the war.

Exactly. Capture or destroy the major cities and the oilfields. Most of the USSR was uninhabited, so you didn't need to conquer it all, just the bits that mattered.

I agree that Stalin was just as ruthless as Hitler, but if he'd lost his main supplies of fuel and munitions there wouldn't have been a lot he could have done other than carry out guerilla raids.

In my opinion Germany's intention wasn't to conquer Russia; in fact if Hitler had thought Stalin trustworthy he wouldn't have invaded at all. But he knew that given time, Russia would have attacked him, so he was just getting there first.

 

[Null_Zone]

Hitler's stated aim from the very beginning was war with Russia and expansion to the east.

As for capturing the oil fields, the Soviets did a good number on destroying them, getting them back into operation would be tricky given the Axis black sea ports were being bombed, there were only a couple ship loads of drilling equipment and somehow they need to ship the oil back and refined with the Germans limited refineries.