Low Fantasy

I think that's like saying there's no reason to read fiction about contemporary times when we could just read newspapers. To me it's about the story. If Kay wants to create an analog of reconquista Spain to tell the story he wants to tell that's fine by me.

There's a difference between having a story to tell and setting it in an analogue of reconquista Spain, and having the recreation of reconquista Spain be the goal with the story tossed in to make people read what amounts to a dressed up wiki article on the author's fav hobby.

I maybe shouldn't have named names because both of those authors have a pretty large body of work that exceeds what I'm talking about and maybe they weren't the best examples.

I think of GRRM who basically started out with a loose re-telling of the 100 years war and built a story around that. And you can see the affect because once he created his low fantasy medieval UK, the plot began to spiral out of control and became little more than a soap opera... if I'm going to read that, I might as well read about real people.
 
I believe the term "Low Fantasy" precedes the "gritty" works of Martin and Abercrombie, so to find the original definition of the term you would have to go back before ASOIAF was first published.

I think it would be closer to the Wikipedia article.

Of course the use of terms change. But some would term ASOIAF as High Fantasy. I believe that publishers do in listing the kind of books they would like to see more of.
 
I would classify ASOIAF as epic fantasy but not high fantasy. It's not low fantasy either, though, by any definition, because a) there clearly is some supernatural stuff going on beyond the Wall, and b) it's mostly about the people in power, not the underdogs.

Admittedly I've only read the first book, but it appears there are no "wizards" (humans wielding magic) and no non-human civilisations, and as far as one can tell in AGOT, "dragon" could just be their word for "dinosaur" since they all seem to be extinct. It's like an anti-LotR, where the huge battles are fought solely between humans, most of whom are less than heroic and noble despite their lofty titles.
 
ASOIAF starts off very low magically speaking, heck through most of the first book much of the magic has a much more base feel to it and much could simply be random events rather than proper magic.
However as the story progresses the world starts to come to life (as winter sets in) magically speaking and whilst I'd never really class the series as a whole in the same magical grouping as, say Malazan Book of the Fallen.

And herein is why I try to avoid too many sub-groupings of a genre, they end up too personal to one person or to a generation. I rather keep to much more simplistic groupings and as such, whilst different, ASOIAF and Malazan both, to me, fit into Epic fantasy.

High or low - eh I'd say both are high in so much that magic is a major turning point - only that whilst Malazan starts with a bang ASOIAF takes its time to cool down.
 
There's a difference between having a story to tell and setting it in an analogue of reconquista Spain, and having the recreation of reconquista Spain be the goal with the story tossed in to make people read what amounts to a dressed up wiki article on the author's fav hobby.

I maybe shouldn't have named names because both of those authors have a pretty large body of work that exceeds what I'm talking about and maybe they weren't the best examples.

I think of GRRM who basically started out with a loose re-telling of the 100 years war and built a story around that. And you can see the affect because once he created his low fantasy medieval UK, the plot began to spiral out of control and became little more than a soap opera... if I'm going to read that, I might as well read about real people.

Interesting couple of points.

Am currently reading Kay's "Sailing to Sarantium" and he is a very good writer - some of his character writing is exceptional. But I've read a lot about Byzantine history and it does grate that not only is he just regurgitating history, he has chosen one of the most popularised periods - Justin -> Justinian + Theodora and the Nike Riots - but changed the names. (Also, the chariot racing scene feels a bit lifted from Ben Hur. :) )

While I've not finished the book, so far I think I would have preferred it if he had kept the names and written it as "historical fantasy" rather than "fantasy", as Stephen Lawhead did with his "Byzantium", which runs on a similar premise of someone travelling to Constantinople. Not least because my mind corrects the names as I read them, which stutters the reading experience.

However, I suspect a one reason for changing the names may be to prevent people calling foul of historical mistakes, which has to be an intimidating prospect.

I'm personally using a lot of the ancient world as an inspiration in my own writing, and the history of the Byzantine Empire features as a key source - but as an inspiration, not a copy. That would seem pointless.

As for GRRM going off on a tangent - heh, I think that's more through lack of discpline, both from GRRM and his editors. It certainly reads as his own unique world, with his own personal stamp on it. Whether the story rambles or not depends on whether you like to read the internal conflicts of every supporting character, or want to push on with the story, both of which appear to be real reader interests these days.

Personally, I'm not keen on magic use, because it means changing the laws of reality to accomodate it, and I don't think that many writers realise that. Magic becomes a dangerously cliched deus ex machina to help characters escape peril, even though in practical terms the prevalance of magic undermines the very world being built.

My memory of reading Tolkien is that magic was used sparingly and to great effect because of this - simple things such as Gandalf lighting his staff in the Mines of Moria underlined his great power. If he'd have just fireballed his way through the goblins there and let the others follow in the ashes, then they would have become redundant.

Ultimately, the less magic there is, the more any protagonist has to overcome problems through their own insights and virtues. That appeals more personally to me than having to change the rules of reality to make it easier.

Returning to historical fantasy, people through history have always described the mundane in fantastical terms, lacking the scientific knowledge we have now to explain there. There's no harm in having a magical character in an historical setting - just a damn good justification as to why someone with such power hasn't become a huge meglomaniac, or wiped out civilisation by accident.

2c. :)
 
However, I suspect a one reason for changing the names may be to prevent people calling foul of historical mistakes, which has to be an intimidating prospect.

That's why I write alternate history fantasy - if anyone complains about historical accuracy, I can just say "well Elizabeth I didn't get married either - this is not our universe" :)

Of course I try to get all the non-alternate stuff as accurate as possible, otherwise it might as well be an invented world!

There's no harm in having a magical character in an historical setting - just a damn good justification as to why someone with such power hasn't become a huge meglomaniac...

Heh - my entire trilogy revolves around dealing with exactly these problems :eek:
 
I would classify ASOIAF as epic fantasy

You're right, Anne. Epic Fantasy is what I meant.

But high, middle (OK, there is no middle), or low, fantasy has never, so far as I know, been classified according to the morals or ideals of the characters, and the dividing line between High Fantasy and Epic Fantasy has always been a vague one. For some readers they are practically synonymous.
 
@IBrian

I don't know much about Byzantine history except that it was generally divided into several divisions. The eras went like Constantine-Justinian-Iconoclasm-pre crusades-crusades-decline. Interesting how when Europe was in the dark ages, that Empire was more akin to the eastern civilizations when it came to administration and control. Anyway, I have never seen a MOVIE that was connected to this empire in any time period. Would be interested in seeing more historical epic movies about them.
 
Well, the two titles that jumped out at me are Mieville's The City and The City and Mary Gentle's Ash: A Secret History although both are books I find hard to put into a specific genre anyway.

Of course, the lack of consensus as to what low fantasy is muddies the issue, but personally while I think copious amounts of magic or non-human races definitely falls into "high", I don't think that the lack thereof necessitates "low" if that makes sense. A prime example being GRRM. (I wrote that, then remembered the dragons - high fantasy if ever there was one!)

Who's read Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London? Where would you place that, containing as it does wizards, vampires and river gods, but apart from that being very "realistic"? I can't bring myself to call it high, but neither by my own vague definitions does it fall in to low. :confused:
 
The Drying Ink chap seemed very taken with your book :)
 
Who's read Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London? Where would you place that, containing as it does wizards, vampires and river gods, but apart from that being very "realistic"? I can't bring myself to call it high, but neither by my own vague definitions does it fall in to low. :confused:

It's Urban Fantasy, which certainly isn't High Fantasy. Since we seem to be struggling to define Low Fantasy, I'm not sure whether it would fall into that category or not, I think it might be too vague a category to be useful.
 
This is exactly what has turned me off fantasy, and writer like Kay and Kearney are at the heart of it. If a "fantasy" novel is being used as little more than a vehicle for recreating past cultures the author finds interesting, then there's no point to me reading it. I'd just as soon read a book that tells me about that real culture and learn something useful in the process. I can imagine my own stories just fine past that.

I mean seriously, isn't Europe's history of warring clans and conquest interesting enough that it doesn't need to be dressed up with fake names, a random wizard, and a good made up set piece or two?

I suppose its because we all ready know what's happened. I'd love to read a series of novels based on The War Of The Roses but I've been spoilered by history and that takes a little bit away from the suspense. Hence why I love A Game Of Thrones.
 

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