5.22: Not Fade Away - Series Finale

[Highlander II]

{episode discussion only -- no worries about promos - there aren't any}


Er - well, begins where the previous episode left off -- Angel's chattin' quick with the gang, talkin' his plan about how they're gonna kick some demon butt...

There's deceit, there's betrayal, there's fighting and killing, there's death and tears and well, just a bit of everything...

 

[Highlander II]

Well, I probably have thoughts on this episode, just not exactly sure what all of them are just now.


Was sad when Wesley died, though got kinda spoiled somewhere, so, kknew SOMEONE was gonna - and it's gettin' kinda cliche - can they kinda stop doing that? Killin' major characters in final episodes? It's old and tired.


Overall, gotta say that, like with the BtVS final, I was a bit disappointed with the ending. Not that it wasn't good - it was very well done, but there was so much 'oooh, the end is coming' and then, it was kind of a fizzle of a battle...


I'm not sure if I liked this ending better or not - probably so - just b/c the BtVS one was almost too goody-goody-ish - and too clean - but either way - pretty good episode --


It just really needed a lot more time to really get into things - I feel like I missed something in the middle of the ep - like Wes attacking that demon dude, and Illyria - we didn't get to see her fight at all, and we didn't see much of Lindsay fighting, and Spike kicking butt with the baby - I mean, I know leaving some of it 'unseen' is to give 'suspense' - but it's hard to feel suspense when you're pretty sure that you've *seen* the one character who's gonna die already - you can be pretty sure the rest are okay --- usually ---

anyway -- as endings go - not so bad -- but, the WB still sux for cancelling the show --

 

[Analise]

I posted a lot about it in my lj. (http://notthatjaded.livejournal.com), so I won't reiterate that stuff.

But..yeah. This really should've been a two hour long ep, or two parter.

Or better yet....they should have another season! Yes!

*snuggles her angel and spike plushies*

 

[JonahBlack]

I really enjoyed the episode, though I'm sad to see the series end. I thought it was far better than the Buffy series finally. There were pleny of suprises and twists to keep me glued to my seat. I also liked the final scene, and the way the left their final destiny a bit ambiguous (My guess is that they are ultimately saved by an army of slayers).

 

[JonahBlack]

Re: Analise's LiveJournal

I actually really liked the bit w/ Lorne. It explained how he's been acting. This is how I see it as going down:

Angel needed another fighter. He also wanted to take out as many bad guys as possible. Once he's got Lindsay on the team, he takes Lorne aside and tells him what he's planning. See, he wants to bump off Lindsay (who's been shown to be pretty irredemable), but he can't spare anyone else to do it. Plus, Lorne isn't going to be much of an asset in their plans. So he has lorne go w/ Lindsay under the guise of backup/keeping an eye on him.

Lorne understands why he has to do this, but doesn't like the position he's in. Moreover, he's already lost some faith in Angel, and he lost his heart for this fight when Fred died. That's what leads to him finally bailing at the end.

'Sides, I didn't see that coming at all.

Just my $0.02

 

[Highlander II]

I have to admit a small affinity for the lengthier version of the 'effulgent' poem --- which, btw, sounded eternally better in this ep than it did the way it was read in "FFL" ---

I had read somewhere that there actually was more to that poem, but those few lines were all that the 'partygoer' read at the party - and they all laughed... it sounded WAY better when Spike read it ---

Gotta love how they play up like he was drinking to get ready for a fight and, turns out, he's gonna read his sappy poems instead (or recite them from memory - dude, that vampire chose the weirdest stuff to remember).

Everyone on their 'perfect day' - I like that they brought Anne back - and that Wes didn't have a 'perfect day' b/c the one thing that would make his day perfect doesn't exist anymore. Poor Wesley.

Ooh - other show connection -- Dennis Christopher - the guy who played Vale - he was Jack on Profiler --- he's one creepy actor -- or, well, he's good at the creepy characters.

Anthing else? Oh - Harmony - knew she had to play something of an integral part -- they put her in the credits - didn't expect her to be the 'back biter' though - maybe just to run away and hide, but not to be the 'mole'.

Good ep - and yes, now that I think about it - I did like this one better than the BtVS one -- even tho it needed about 90 more minutes to REALLY cover everything.

 

[obcooke]

WORST EPISODE EVER!

I haven't disagreed with the crowd this greatly in a long time, but what are you all - cracked?

A slap-dash, hastily-plotted end tacked onto a series that spent a long time building up to an Apocalypse with soulful vamps, Slayers and destinies fulfilled.

Oh, here let's dispose of that pesky Shan-Shu prophecy that really doesn't have a role to play in this travesty, so we'll just take a minute of screen time to sign it away as if it never existed.

THAT ALONE SHOULD HAVE ALL OF YOU SCREAMING!?!?

Of all the characters available to you, why would you kill Wesley, for God's sake? His interplay with Illyria was the only interesting personal dynamic going on between any of the characters.

And she/they were the best source of dramatic tension since Lindsey came back. Besides, if they did survive the fight, they'd be a potential source of sequels or, heck, a whole new story line - The Adventures of Illyria and Wesley.

So let's see... Illyria is able to kill everyone, including Angel, without working up a sweat in one episode. In another episode, Hamilton beats down Illyria without working up a sweat. But Angel manages to last quite a while and even Conner gets some telling blows in versus Hamilton? How does that work again?

And another thing, why does Wesley give up his love of guns for his showdown match? What makes him think he has the magic props to put up anything more than a token fight? His magic has been almost entirely long-researched and ritualistic, usually involving charms. He's not a Willow level magic fighter and everyone knows it - I doubt if he's even at Giles' level.

They did kill Wesley (see above) and Lindsey for dramatic effect. But then, I figured Lindsey was already dead. When he disappeared during the Cordy episode, I counted him among the departed. But they brought him back - so they could kill him again.

The Lorne development was unexpected and dramatic - a welcome change of pace from the rest of the story.

The Harmony development was good also but it didn't have a pay-off except for a lame joke. Okay, that's Harmony, the comic relief, but the letter of recommendation was WAY over the top and ruined the moment.

Spike's poetry was good as well. One of the only times this episode even acknowledged 12 years of history (or three hundred years, depending on how you count it).

And what's with Angel killing Drogyn? "Oh, I had to do it so I could kill the really bad guys." BULL. How would Lindsey put it? - "Here's the thing, heroes don't kill the innocent for any reason - they find another way."

These are rhetorical questions, no matter how clever the excuses you make for them or how much you twist the pretzel, they are flaws.

But these are minor things compared to the first point. They completely broke with years of Angel lore to present a rushed inadequate finale.

The finale was a simple creature feature. They killed a bunch of demons - big deal. They do that every week. But this week we were told they were much worse than other demons. So that makes it a big finish? - Nice try.

I almost wish that the series had ended with the Illyria two-parter. That was a nuanced, surprising and heart-rending story, which offered interesting potential for future plotlines.

Better than the Buffy finale? Oh, you mean the finale that not only wrapped up the Hellmouth saga with a slamming epic story, but also advanced the series in unexpected and dramatic ways. Sorry, this Angel episode doesn't even come close.

 

[Highlander II]

I love it when Ob comes out to play -


I've only watched the ep the one time - so, I'm still bouncing on 'original thoughts' just now --

My big gripe with the BtVS finale is that it seemed so 'everyone's happy now' - or not everyone, but it seemed to 'happy now' and almost 'too clean' an ending for the show. Sure, it wrapped up lots of stuff - almost too quickly - and maybe that's why I don't like it so much. (the series finale to MacGyver was better )

The AtS finale - again - too fast - that's the biggest reason I'm not loving this episode - and I wouldn't classify it as the worst ever -- remember "Happy Anniversary"?? Ugh - bad bad bad -- anyway, there were things I really didn't like - but mostly I just remember Wesley not having a perfect day and Spike reciting poetry.

I haven't been thrilled with what they've done with Spike this season - they've almost regressed him to the 'quirky neighbor' from S4 of BtVS, but there were a couple episodes where they tried to take him somewhere - it's just that somewhere, someone forgot that he's no longer chipped and he can be the bada$$ he was before - b/c he didn't go all broody like Angel - and do a lot more. He was 'underused' again. I mean - there was that whole build up of a friendship with him and Fred, then it fizzled off to nothing - even before she became Illyria. blah -

I'm not sure exactly what they were trying to do with this season - it was like they had a plan through about "Smile Time" - then everything changed and they were trying to wrap up all the 'loose ends' before the ending. And why didn't they just do a 2-hour finale? was that a decision from the WB or from Joss? I'm still really confused on that part. Plus, one of the 'wrap ups' they did - the Spike - Buffy - Angel thing - I don't feel they wrapped very well. I have *no* idea where anyone is on that thing. Did Angel and Spike decide to just leave Buffy alone? Somehow, that makes no sense, plus what about the 'she doesn't trust you anymore' thing that Andrew told them back in "Damage"? And who was the Immortal and why didn't he play a part in the finale? Was he a red herring? Just some random nobody who had no point in the series at all except as some faceless wonder in the middle of a filler episode?

This is stuff that should have been addressed in the finale, IMO, and weren't. And, yeah, I was wondering where exactly this big bad apocalypse that Lindsay had mentioned was -- or did Angel 'scare' it away by killing off the Black Thorn members? That was never explained. And now we're left with this big potential battle against the Sr. Partners with, what?, 4 people? Wait - 2 vampires with souls, one super-strong human chic and Gunn. Somehow, I don't think they're gonna win. Unless the movie is supposed to be those 4 fighting, then Buffy and all the potentials and Scoobies show up to help. Still don't think they'll win, but hey - I don't write the show.

Wesley and magic - I was wondering how he learned to make fireballs, and how he thought that softball sized fireball was gonna do damage against a guy with Vale's power. (Vale was the one who re-wrote the memories, right? Uh - couldn't he have re-written Wes' memories to make him believe that he was a 3-legged dog or something? anyway --- )


So, yeah - not the best ever - not even the best finale - and I agree with Ob on a lot of points. I kinda liked the episode - as in, the filming parts and some of the scenes and some of the 'overall' stuff, but as far as finales go? It was a fizzler...

Not overly impressed...

 

[obcooke]

[Originally posted by OB-Wan: WORST EPISODE EVER!]

Okay, I exaggerated there for dramatic effect. That was my impersonation of The Simpson's "Comic Book Guy's" catch phrase.

You're right there were a lot of stinkers in both series, especially Buffy Season Six and Angel Season Four. But many times even when the episode plot was lame, the dialogue or character developments could save the hour and make the episode watch-able.

This one kinda suffers all around. Some nice moments, but they don't hold together too well. Spike's poetry, Lorne's finale and seeing Anne again, which I didn't mention earlier, were treats. But overall a disappointing effort.

To borrow a phrase from another show, this episode suffers from "a failure of imagination." It just plods towards a "last stand" that was predetermined in the previous episode.

So much promise - Wolf, Ram & Hart; the Shan-Shu prophecy; The Powers That Be (remember them); Angelus/William/Darla/Dru; Buffy and the Slayerettes; Illyria/Fred & Wesley; Lindsey's Apocalypse.

What the hell was all that foreshadowing for anyway, if there was never going to be a payoff? What is this - The X-Files? Oops, there's an X-Files spoiler.

========================================

[Originally posted by Highlander II: My big gripe with the BtVS finale is that it seemed... to 'happy now' and almost 'too clean' an ending...]

Well, I haven't done this scientifically, but it seems to me that there are basically three kinds of finales. Sure you can mix them some, but usually they are presented in their pure form.

HAPPILY EVERY AFTER - LIFE GOES ON - EVERYBODY DIES

<WARNING: The following answer involves plot spoilers for the Buffy finale, so if you don’t want to know skip to the next set of lines like these: >

========================================

HAPPILY EVER AFTER -
Buffy ends with the feeling that everything is going to be all right. Okay, may I say - What's wrong with a happy ending? I mean as long as the struggle is commensurate with the victory.

Don't forget you had tens of Slayers and allies vs. thousands of super-vamps. You had the sacrifice of Spike and the deaths of characters that I personally was sad to see go - Anya, or course, and that skinny Slayer with the squeaky voice who played D&D. And, by the way, you had the entire city falling in. You get bloody, but you buy a better life with the sacrifice.

In the case of Buffy, they also decided to combine the happy ending with the characters beginning a new stage in their lives (the post-Sunnydale era), which is not uncommon in the H.E.A. finale.

I liked it.

========================================

LIFE GOES ON (The song remains the same.) -
Joss complained that when he was younger he really liked the TV show "Miami Vice". The advertising for the finale of that show, to expect a very special episode, hyped him. He was disappointed to find that the last episode was just like any other episode. He said that he didn't want to do that to his Buffy fans.

But that is a valid finale choice - to imply that life continues pretty much unchanged for our heroes, you just can't tune in next week. This episode of Angel had a lot of this element in it. They continue to kill demons this week and, presumably, if they survive, they are still fighting demons.

It's a non-ending, but it does have the consolation of reassuring the audience that the characters live on. Unless, of course, you combine it, as Angel did, with the EVERYBODY DIES finale.

========================================

EVERYBODY DIES (The Blake's 7 Gambit) -

Sorry everyone, I guess that's a spoiler for Blake's 7.

The thing about this option is that, in order for it to bring finality, you have to see them die!!!!!!!! Painful, sure, but necessary.

What we have with the Angel finale is a half-assed combination of EVERYBODY DIES and LIFE GOES ON. It leaves the most flexibility for the writers, but it does so at the cost of any closure for the audience.

Maybe Joss didn't want a LIFE GOES ON ending and so they made it as close to EVERYBODY DIES as they could without having the nerve to actually go through with it.

So we don't have a H.E.A. ending - for sure. We don't have a L.G.O. ending cause it seems so grim. And we don't have an E.D. finale because the writers could always come up with an escape plan. So we don't have any kind of ending at all.

 

[Highlander II]

Back to the 'triangle' - Spike - Buffy - Angel -

this whole thing is really bugging me -

what were they thinking? S5 became so 'soap opera' b/c of this stupid triangle thing - I hated it -

Angel and Spike were always bickering like an old married couple, usually about Buffy - instead of banding together to kick evil's a$$! Why did the writers feel the need to write them that way? It was only funny the first time when Spike showed up - after that, it just wasn't funny anymore. (Actually, the only time it was really funny was when they were sitting on the couch whining at each other about Barry Manilow and poetry.) But nooooooooooo - the writers stretched this **** out over the whole bloody season.

Plus - add to that - the Buffy stuff. Did they have to whinge and fight over her the WHOLE season? Ugh. I think the writers missed it completely. B/c, what I think Buffy meant when she told Spike "I love you." - was the friendship type - b/c that's where they were at the end of S7 - they were friends. Not romantically involved at all - they were close - like friends, b/c Buffy let him get that close, which was something she hadn't done before - really with anyone, except her mother. I don't think she meant she loved him in that 'let's get married and buy a house' kind of way, like she did with Angel. (sort of - that was a high school love, but anyway) She still loves Angel, and maybe she loves Spike, but I think she loves them differently and for her to have to choose between the two would be HUGE for all of them. Mostly, Angel and Spike should BOTH get over her and move on and not think that, in the end, either of them is going to 'win' her. (My feelings for why she doesn't deserve either of them not withstanding.) She's not a prize, and honestly, they could both do better. Angel likes that werewolf chick, Nina, right? Why's he still whinging over Buffy, except to annoy Spike, which is annoying to the audience. Spike? He just needs to be Spike for a bit and not identify with a girlfriend (he's kinda like Buffy there - he's always gotta have someone to identify with - ugh, wish that wasn't there) anyway - Spike needs to just be Spike and learn who HE is before jumping into another relationship. (that's kind of a whole other ball of wax... so we'll be moving on)

I don't like the way they attempted (badly) to wrap up the triangle - mostly b/c they didn't 'wrap' anything - we still have no idea if these two idiot vampires have gotten it through their thick heads to just stop worrying about winning the girl and get on with their lives. We don't know this b/c the next thing they had to deal with was this Black Thorn mess and the impending (potential) apocalypse. So, we're still in the big mess we were in before they ran off to Italy for no reason...

grrrrrrrrr

think I'm kinda done ranting now....

 

[Jobeth]

I agree with you Highlander. The whole A/B/S triangle was ridiculous. It was obvious that Angel had moved on from Buffy all the way back in S2. (How could anyone watch Angel sacrificing himself for Darla in The Trial or his anguish at her sacrifice in Lullaby and believe that he was still thinking of Buffy?)

I came late to the Angel/Buffyverse so I missed all the A/B true love 4evah! angst of early Buffy. By the time I picked up those shows, Buffy was hotnheavy with Riley and Angel was in love with Cordelia. Then of course we had Spuffy and Angel/Nina.

Back on Topic:

I liked the finale for the most part, except for Lorne murdering Lindsey at Angel's request.

Let's get this straight: Angel lets Harmony, a soul-less vampire who has killed innocent people before and certainly will again, who also betrayed him, walk out of W&H with a recommendation.

Lindsey, on the other hand, is a human with a soul, (and therefore the possibility of redemption), who risked his life to fight on Angel's side, gets whacked. Presumably because Lorne had 'read' him while Lindsey sang.

However, the last time Lorne heard Lindsey sing was in Dead End, THREE years ago, and at that time, Lorne's response was to tell Angel that he and Lindsey needed to work together. Besides, Lorne has been wrong before.

Definitely a plot hole there. It would have made more sense if Lorne had overheard Lindsey singing (perhaps to himself), in Power Play.

 

[Runny91]

Hi. I'm Runny 91 new to the computer as well as the site . I'm behind also in the reading of the messages and came across yours dated 5-4-04 and was glad to see that there are others, thinking along the lines as myself. I blame the writers for such a bad season, in fact I wrote Joss and Davic W before the season ever started and told them that there wasn't any way they could move into a evil law firm with 6 people and make the story be believable I also asked if it was his intention to self distruct of course I never had a reply so I guess that ment YES. I read in a July review on WB where they said they might have made a mistake in canceling angel, it appears the two shows they had to put in angel's place fell through but, now they didn't know whether David B could be convinced to come back. I also read an interview with David B who said he was glad the show was over because he had bigger things he wanted to try. Yes he'd be willing to do a movie but wasn't sure if he would return to the angel tv show. so I ask was this whole season 5 just a ploy to make it so bad that people would be glad it went off. It appears David B wants to be an action star such as: Harrison Ford or Bruce Willis (good luck) he should try to make a better action star out of angel first., because he didn't show much in the hero department in season 5. Meny of his episodes were embarrassing beside the chancing after buffy episode the whinning , and feeling sorry for himself, and always brooding over anything that didn't go his way wasn't champion or hero , he had a childish attitude. I can't blame the actors for there behavor because it goes back to the writers, there are too meny and each wants his day in the sun even if it takes away from the main plot. I know Joss didn't think this thing thru, of course if he wasn't planning on another season what did he care how it came out so he killed them all off, that way if he decides to start all over with a new show he can get all new up coming actors or actresses and it would be cheaper with( new bes.) In that same review with David B he said that angel 1&5 were his best I bet if you took a vote it would prove him wrong. I wrote him also and told he should look at some of his films he might be surprised to see that they aren't as good as he thinks. I could go on and on about the writers but I'll save it for another day.

 

[PrincessG]

You make some good points, Rummy. IMHO, Angel stopped being a hero the minute he accepted Wolfram and Hart's offer. You simply can't join an organization dedicated to evil and still be considered one of the good guys. From the 'Home' onwards, Angel was just as corrupt as Holland Manners, Lilah, etc.


To make matters worse, he dragged the rest of the gang down with him. (I still don't think that all of them would have joined W&H without the mindwipe.)

As Obcooke put it:

And what's with Angel killing Drogyn? "Oh, I had to do it so I could kill the really bad guys." BULL. How would Lindsey put it? - "Here's the thing, heroes don't kill the innocent for any reason - they find another way."

Absolutely true. Add to that, there was nothing of the 'Hero' in Angel's cynical use and betrayal of Lindsey. It would have been one thing if he'd openly confronted Lindsey and killed him in a fair fight. But to con the man into helping, then having him eliminated (after Lindsey had risked his own life to help Angel!) was completely unethical.

Angel's treatment of Nina was no better. Here we have a young woman who had genuine feelings for Angel; he romances her; beds her, leading Nina to think they had a real relationship. But no, it was all a trick to make the others think he'd gone evil. When he no longer needed her, it was 'goodbye and don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out'.

Personally, I prefer Holland & Co., at least they were honest with themselves, they didn't try to claim the moral high ground.

 

[dmalfoy]

Ok judging from the last couple of posts you're going to hate me but here goes...

I liked it, sorry you can debate all you like but I loved the series overall and found it entertaining. The Italy ep made me laugh and I loved the interplay between Spike and Angel, they make Josh's "perfect couple," I think that's what he called them and it suits. I love the bickering and the fact they really do bring out the worst in each other. I wish they had been able to get an extra series and explore it further.

Wesley yes I found that upsetting but I was relatively okay with it and considering I'm a massive Wes fan that was quite a surprise for me. I just liked the idea of him not being miserable anymore like he has been for the last few years. And the scene shooting his father , well the android version it just was fantastic.

The way they went out fighting like that I thought made a great end, showing that they never stop. although admittedly you do know Gunn's pretty much got no chance and the others don't look like they'll fare much better I did prefer it to the Buffy one. With Buffy I just thought Anya's death would get more sympathy than just them going off to go shopping or whatever. This ending suited me more, it was a good ending a little fast I Admit but it was bound to be once they'd found out it was cancelled, plus I think it's a little cheeky as well maybe not giving the studio bosses a firm ending and giving the audience a cliff hanger to end on. So yeah I enjoyed this episode and I Do think it suited me better than the Buffy one.

 

[Carolyn Hill]

I'm with Dmalfoy. I'm glad his was the last post I read, because the other posts were making me feel like maybe I'm an idiot for having enjoyed the final season. I cried buckets when Cordelia died: after following her character for years and years, when Angel answered the phone and she disappeared, I picked up my cat and walked down the hall, bawling. And then Fred! And then Wes! (Asking Illyria to lie to him--poignant, perfect.)

If there had been another season and Wes hadn't died, I would have liked to see him deal with Illyria, who I assume would have become one of the gang in the bad-guy-becomes-not-so-bad way Joss has.

And the final scene . . . well, I did want to see what would happen to the few of our "soldiers" left standing. But the show was about fighting, not winning, so ending mid-fight was appropriate (if not quite as wonderful and wonderfully clever as resolving Buffy's burden in her finale by sharing it among many girls.)