The Crown Of Stars, Book 7

AryaUnderfoot

AryaUnderfoot
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
881
Location
San Diego, CA
#81
Lacedaemonian said:
We never see the rape though Arya. We only ever hear reference made to it.
I think having a reputation as a rapist is enough to condemn the man, at least in my eyes. Just because it happens "off-camera" doesn't mean that it's excuseable. It just means that Kate Elliot doesn't write that way.
 

Lacedaemonian

A Plume of Smoke
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
2,960
Location
The Road
#82
I wholly agree with you Arya, but it is that much easier to ignore when we do not see it. Also it is not entirely rape not in the modern sense of the word. He simply makes these women his concubines.
 

Alia

Young at Heart
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
1,425
Location
Northern California, USA
#83
Also it is not entirely rape not in the modern sense of the word. He simply makes these women his concubines.
Any force is considered rape. Wickman raped those women, Lace.

We never see the rape though Arya. We only ever hear reference made to it. We do however see his bravery in battle, his lack of respect for his peers and his loyalty to Sanglant. He tries to prove himself to Sanglant throughout the series and I guess this makes him likeable by association.

Wickman bled for Wendar. Nobody save Luitgard could claim the same. Plus Wickman only spoke in the absence of Sanglant who he saw as the only person worthy to lead him. I also think Wickman became a better man because of Sanglant's influence. He was also a free speaker at court when everybody else was strangled by protocol.
I agree with you and in a way he redeemed (to a point) himself with me mainly because of the mystery of his survival at the battle where King Henry died. I became intrigued on who he was and why he was able survive after Sanglant left him alone on the battle field. But he is still a rapist.
 

Lacedaemonian

A Plume of Smoke
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
2,960
Location
The Road
#84
But a damn good fighter!!!

Rape is not rape - only our modern interpretation tells us it is. He did not take the women against their will as they had no will. They had no consent to give or deny.

I am aware that I am on dangerous ground here. :)
 
Last edited:

Alia

Young at Heart
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
1,425
Location
Northern California, USA
#85
Lacedaemonian said:
But a damn good fighter!!!

Rape is not rape - only our modern interpretation tells us it is. He did not take the women aginst their will as they had will. They had no consent to give or deny.

I am aware that I am on dangerous ground here. :)
A damn good fighter indeed!!!

And you are treading on dangerous ground!!! He did take them against their will. I remember the one saying 'no' over and over and it was her aunt who passed her on to him as a reward. She eventually had no say so over the matter but she cried and didn't want to be with him. That's rape, Lace. It was against her wishes despite the time or place. The same thing happen with Liath. Hugh raped her.
 

AryaUnderfoot

AryaUnderfoot
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
881
Location
San Diego, CA
#86
Lacedaemonian said:
Rape is not rape - only our modern interpretation tells us it is. He did not take the women aginst their will as they had will. They had no consent to give or deny.
I suppose slavery wasn't bad either, except to those of us who have fallen prey to modern sensitivities.

Come on Lace, you know what you're saying here is bull****.
 

Lacedaemonian

A Plume of Smoke
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
2,960
Location
The Road
#89
I could but I won't. Wickman does some awful things but has bags of charisma and is so dangerous that he excites the reader. I only assume that his raping days are over once Sanglant comes into his life.
 

Alia

Young at Heart
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
1,425
Location
Northern California, USA
#90
AryaUnderfoot said:
I suppose slavery wasn't bad either, except to those of us who have fallen prey to modern sensitivities.

Come on Lace, you know what you're saying here is bull****.
He knows that, Arya which is why he is feeding off of our point of view. He's knows we are right and is enjoying the banter. :)

I could but I won't. Wickman does some awful things but has bags of charisma and is so dangerous that he excites the reader. I only assume that his raping days are over once Sanglant comes into his life.
Wickman's raping days were over once Sanglant came into play. My favorite scene was when Liath and Sanglant had just reunited, this was right after Liath was saved by the Griffins and they were coming out of the tent. Wickman asked Sanglant when he was done with Liath if he could have the cow next. Sanglant turns to him and without raising his voice lets him know that Liath is his wife. Wickman falls all over himself to get away from the both of them. :)
 

Lacedaemonian

A Plume of Smoke
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
2,960
Location
The Road
#91
He fears Sanglant but also knows that Sanglant needs him. Wickman and Hugh are much alike in that they both can not climb the ladder very high. Hugh looks to magic to elevate his position, whereas Wickman looks to combat.

When he takes the flag in Aosta it is amazing.
 

AryaUnderfoot

AryaUnderfoot
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
881
Location
San Diego, CA
#93
Alia said:
He knows that, Arya which is why he is feeding off of our point of view. He's knows we are right and is enjoying the banter.
Yeah, that's why I stopped where I did. I'm fully aware that it was a (not funny) joke.

Alia said:
Wickman's raping days were over once Sanglant came into play.
Or not. It seems they're only over when he's caught by Sanglant. He would have had his way with Frederun had Sanglant not happened to overhear. As the saying goes: "when the cat's away, the mice will play." I don't think Wickman held back at all when Sanglant was safely out of the picture.
 

Alia

Young at Heart
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
1,425
Location
Northern California, USA
#95
Or not. It seems they're only over when he's caught by Sanglant. He would have had his way with Frederun had Sanglant not happened to overhear. As the saying goes: "when the cat's away, the mice will play." I don't think Wickman held back at all when Sanglant was safely out of the picture.
Did Wickman die at the end of the story?

And there is no reason to get heated over Wickman. It's just a story...
 

AryaUnderfoot

AryaUnderfoot
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
881
Location
San Diego, CA
#97
Alia said:
And there is no reason to get heated over Wickman. It's just a story...
I'm not getting heated, I guess I just don't follow why you guys find him to be such an admirable character. It confuses me that everyone hates Hugh for being "rotten on the inside," but they'll quickly dismiss Wickman's faults in light of his prowess in battle.

Please don't think that I'm accusing anyone of anything. I just find it to be a bit strange. :confused:
 

Alia

Young at Heart
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
1,425
Location
Northern California, USA
#98
With Wickman there was some comical relief and also there was someone who he looked up to and followed orders from. With Hugh there wasn't. Hugh didn't even listen to his mother. Wickman also had some compassion *shudders* *cringes* *makes a face* yes this is true despite having to say it. Wickman moarned over the loss of his cousin in the King's Dragon (I think that's the book). I did however enjoy how he egged his sisters on too. There were some qualities about Wickman that made him very different than Hugh. There was a lighter side of Wickman that we saw. And also Wickman never stepped over the lines to go against the good guys. Hugh, even though he was compassionate, it wasn't sincere. He used and tortured all that he could. Wickman wasn't like that...
 

Lacedaemonian

A Plume of Smoke
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
2,960
Location
The Road
#99
Wickman was a very base person and operated in a world of sex and violence much like an animal.

Hugh's depravity ran much deeper than that.

For me when he refuses to shut upin the final council is his greatest moment. I think if he had been fit he would have killed Conrad.
 

GOLLUM

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
9,034
Location
Australia
WOHOO!!! Picked up Crown Of Stars Book 7 last night at the local bookstore, so I hope to start reading today.

*GOLLUM dances the jig*.........:D
 

Similar threads

Top