Matrix Reloaded (2003)

[stripes]

And what I meant by controlling his own life also extends to controlling or dictating the lives of others around him(or those still plugged into the Matrix). In other words, despite his choice to save Trinity, he still has the power to saves those in the Matrix itself.

I didn't make that clear in my last post.

 

[pkgrl]

Okay, seems you guys can't wait until I post my theory in a new thread (you keep mentioning parts of it here) so I'll let you guys know what I think is driving the whole Matrix trilogy now.

First, timdgreat mentioned

i know part of it is Neo's doing i think a majority of it is Smith trying to control everything, seems hes the wild card that no one had counted on and now hes really messed up everything in his play for power cant wait to see what happens

Absolutely! And what stripe said in the last post hits on the same thing.

In other words, despite his choice to save Trinity, he still has the power to saves those in the Matrix itself.

I think what's happening between these two is that essentially they are battling to be the next "God" of the Matrix... and the real world.

Consider what we know:

1) The code of the Matrix has changed. Everyone keeps mentioning it throughout the movie, especially Neo and Link (the operator). When Smith tries to overwrite Neo, Link and the others can't figure out what he's doing because they can't read the code. When Neo, Trin and Morpheus go to see the Marovingian, Neo says in the elevator that the code looks strange, like every floor is wired with explosives. And even when Neo flies out of the Architect's monitor room, his own code is so different that Link and Morpheus can't identify him: ("What's that?" "I don't know, but whatever it is is moving faster than anything I've ever seen.")

2) Both Smith and Neo have the power to create life: Smith by copying himself onto other software, including humans who are plugged into the Matrix; Neo by bringing Trinity back to life after she "died" inside the Matrix. Miracles like creating life are usually reserved for saviors and gods... at least in human mythology (and religion).

3) Both Smith and Neo have begun to bring their "powers" outside the Matrix. We saw Smith finally leave the Matrix (in the form of Bane, after having overwritten his personality with his own) and we don't know if he triggered a ship's EMP to tip the humans' hands in their attempted counterattact, or if he manufactured it himself. And Neo stopped the squiddies at the end by creating what looked like an EMP barrier (since it had the same effect as an EMP) which disabled them. (I think he was able to "sense" the machines in the real world because he was changed when he left the Architect's room.) These are things they would have only been able to do inside the Matrix... until now. But neither one has enough power yet to do these things without some personal risk... thus they are both in a coma, presently.

There's more too it (like the symbolism of Neo's name, and more) but you get the drift. I've been talking about it with friends, and they agree.

Dave said that the Architect has been watching Neo for a long time... I agree. I think it chose him to be the next "One" so it's been watching his progress. The fact that Morpheus and the others took so long to find Neo is bad for the Architect, though. Seems Neo developed more of his own personality and was a different person by the time he even learned about the Matrix, so he had different ideas of what he could and couldn't do going in. The others may have had "more respect" for the Marovingian, meaning possibly that they treaded more carefully, but Neo could do more against his minions. He has more "skill" than his predecessors. Because of these things, I think that the Architect was telling the truth about the five previous incarnations of the Matrix and it's subsiquent offshoots, like the creation of Zion. I also think that the Architect knows something else is going on inside the Matrix that's beyond its control (ie, Smith taking control) and that's why it tried so hard to convince Neo into going back to the source for the ultimate reboot. The machines ARE desperate.

Problem for the humans is, Neo doesn't know what's he's possibly becoming. That's the WHY he hasn't figured out.

Anyway, that's my theory. Feel free to poke holes. I gotta get ready for work.

 

[Dave]

That sounds likely. I said already that Agent Smith has somehow become something different. Only I think that these rogue virus-like programs will now help the humans to win, now that they may have a chance of breaking the cycle and winning.

from TIME magazine
That strange number, 314: Could it refer to pi (3.14); or to Cerebral Cortex 314, the website for the Commander Keen computer game; or to the lifetime batting average of White Sox outfielder Bibb Falk?

Also they have a good plot summary for those still looking at http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030512/story2.html

Reloaded begins as The Matrix did, with green computer code drizzling down a black screen and Trinity kicking beaucoup booty as the Agents pursue her over and off rooftops. She demolishes several drone Guards with a virtuosic fury: fabulous helmet smashes and back-leg extensions. Soon she is hurtling streetward as an Agent blasts away at her. Thwock! One bad-guy bullet hits home. Trinity falls onto a parked car, terminally smashing it and her.

Neo is jolted awake from this dream, or prophecy, as Trinity sleeps next to him. The Nebuchadnezzar, Morpheus' ship, heads for Zion, the one city on Earth whose humans are not under the spell of The Matrix. Except for Neo's fight with three upgrade-generation Agents, the film's first hour is spent on political wrangling among the Zion elite. Morpheus tangles with his rival Lock (Harry Lennix) and realigns with lost love Niobe (Pinkett Smith). If you thought the Jedi Council debates were the high points of the Star Wars films, you'll love this part of Reloaded. The red-meat brigade will have to wait a bit for their action satisfaction.

Agent Smith (Hugo Weaving), Neo's nemesis, has been busy. At the end of the first film, he thought he had killed Neo; in fact, he was witness to the birth of the hero. Now that Neo has learned to fly, Smith has acquired a trick of his own: this computer virus can invade any form, human or Agent, and take it over. After invading Bane, a Zionite, Smith cuts a gash in his hand. He's fascinated by the humanity he has assumed - by the blood, the vulnerability, the pain. Smith was always more warped than we gave him credit for.

Neo is summoned by the Oracle and realizes that she's "a program from the machine world." She gives Neo a quest: find the door to the Source. To do so, he must find the Key Maker (Randall Duk Kim), imprisoned by a desiccated French dandy, the Merovingian (Lambert Wilson).

First, Neo has a date with Mr. Smith—a lot of him—in a courtyard. Neo fights eight, then two dozen, then 100 Smiths. (He's a twist on an Austin Powers villain, the Many-Me.) In the "Burly Brawl," as the filmmakers call this sequence, numerical size doesn't matter. Neo deflects his assailants with his superior pole fighting or by swinging a spare Smith like an Olympic hammer to knock over many others.

Flanked by Trinity and Morpheus, Neo meets the Merovingian and his luscious wife Persephone (Monica Bellucci). The Merovingian is a Frenchman out of the Bush Administration bestiary: cruel, supercilious, with a love of cursing in French - which he describes as like "wiping your ass with silk." He refuses to release the Key Maker.

Persephone, livid at her husband's infidelities, tells Neo she will help him - at the price of a passionate kiss. Reluctantly, he gives her one, and she leads the Zion Three to the Key Maker. They are set upon by eight of the Merovingian's goons, including those fierce wraiths, the Twins. Neo grabs some ancient weapons and bests the bunch. Trinity and Morpheus depart for their wild ride with the Key Maker.

Having survived their freeway adventure, Neo, Morpheus and the Key Maker enter a skyscraper - the building in Neo's Trinity dream. Neo insists Trinity remain behind, to stay alive. "One door leads to the Source," the Key Maker says; he adds that the door will be accessible for exactly 314 seconds. Eventually, after more fighting, Neo finds the right door and walks into a room where an old man (Helmut Bakaitis) sits."I am the Architect," he says. "I created The Matrix. I've been waiting for you."

Watching the first film, skeptical viewers had to wonder: In a world where nothing was as it seemed, were Morpheus and his band the only realists, or were they the victims of a monstrous delusion? The Architect tells Neo he is a dupe: a false hope that springs among the tiny group of rebels who believe in a superman, a One, as their salvation. The coming of Neo and his five predecessors - for this is the sixth version of The Matrix, the sixth revolt of Zion - was programmed by "the mother of The Matrix." The Oracle.

 

[timdgreat]

WOW im blown away

had to read all ur guys posts after my last one 3 times to fully integrate what i was reading and understand it, now that i think i got a grasp of what u were talking about i will jump back in.

First i also am wondering why more people havent posted about the movie yet, i mean i know lots of people are going to see it, the money its making speaks for its self, so where is every one?

seconed Dave i dont think there are layers to the matrix, i just think that there is one, (something i think i previously already stated)

third i really like ur theory pkgrl from re reading it several times now and thinking about it i think it sounds pretty close to the mark, and as of yet i cant find any holes to poke in it. the whole idea tho that Bane is in a coma cause Smith was controling him or something is odd and i cant fathome why, for Neo it makes sense, he exerted himself to much, but not for Bane. unfortunatly we will just have to wait to hear more rumors or wait for more preiviews and the actuall movie, which i wish would come out right now:rolly2:

 

[stripes]

Yeah I can't forgive these cliffhangers, at least we get the full story in a few months though unlike SW.

Originally posted by pkgrl


Dave said that the Architect has been watching Neo for a long time... I agree. I think it chose him to be the next "One" so it's been watching his progress. The fact that Morpheus and the others took so long to find Neo is bad for the Architect, though. Seems Neo developed more of his own personality and was a different person by the time he even learned about the Matrix, so he had different ideas of what he could and couldn't do going in. The others may have had "more respect" for the Marovingian, meaning possibly that they treaded more carefully, but Neo could do more against his minions. He has more "skill" than his predecessors. Because of these things, I think that the Architect was telling the truth about the five previous incarnations of the Matrix and it's subsiquent offshoots, like the creation of Zion. I also think that the Architect knows something else is going on inside the Matrix that's beyond its control (ie, Smith taking control) and that's why it tried so hard to convince Neo into going back to the source for the ultimate reboot. The machines ARE desperate.

Problem for the humans is, Neo doesn't know what's he's possibly becoming. That's the WHY he hasn't figured out.

Anyway, that's my theory. Feel free to poke holes.

well I don't want to poke holes, but I agree with this. The Oracle also tells Neo it is not the choice he will make that matters, since she already knows the choice he'll make, instead, what matters most is that he must understand why he made that choice. I like the connection you made with Trinity and the human race in general, rescuing Trinity then bringing her back to life could also symbolize his role for humanity:

Saving Trinity is essential, since that shows Neo cares, he's not one dimentional, he's fully rounded, and this love for Trinity is not selfish. If he could love her, he could love humanity. But this is stretching it I suppose, oh well.

I would also like to comment on the whole Christ angle of these movies, in the original, Neo was shot dead, but then came back to life, the resurrection anyone?

Perhaps Revolutions will be the Armaggedon of the bible(the battle in Zion), agent Smith(Bane) is the anti-Christ, and Neo the savior king? But not literally of course, but as a symbolism if we are to expand on the Christ=Neo mytho of the series?

Just speculating of course, now you can poke holes.

When can we start discussing those cool effects and out of nowhere gags(it was a fun brawl, what made it more fun was Neo ending it by doing his "superman thing", and all the Smiths looking speechless with a kind of WTF? look on their faces, )?

I also liked Neo's "You could have just asked", line to the Oracle's bodyguard. Neo's one cool hero.

Anyway, continue, this is a very intersting discussion.

 

[pkgrl]

Originally posted by stripes
The Oracle also tells Neo... what matters most is that he must understand why he made that choice. I like the connection you made with Trinity and the human race in general, rescuing Trinity then bringing her back to life could also symbolize his role for humanity:

Saving Trinity is essential, since that shows Neo cares, he's not one dimentional, he's fully rounded, and this love for Trinity is not selfish. If he could love her, he could love humanity. But this is stretching it I suppose, oh well.

Absolutely! Not that it's stretching, but I think you're right on the mark. My friends and I were talking about his love for Trinity making him different from his "predecessors" and also making him more like us, more human. He had more time (over 20 years) inside the Matrix before he was freed and he learned there how human he really was. That was his biggest obsticle in the first movie... he had to realize that he was more than human. But at his core, he's still human. We're told this over and over throughout Reloaded. The agents at the beginning say, "He is still..." "...only human" ; Counselor Hammond tells Neo that not sleeping well means that he is "in fact, still human" ; the Marovingian tells his men (when Neo stops the blade with his bare hand) "See? He's just a man" ; and the Archtect tells Neo that he is "irrevocably human."

I would also like to comment on the whole Christ angle of these movies, in the original, Neo was shot dead, but then came back to life, the resurrection anyone?

Perhaps Revolutions will be the Armaggedon of the bible(the battle in Zion), agent Smith(Bane) is the anti-Christ, and Neo the savior king? But not literally of course, but as a symbolism if we are to expand on the Christ=Neo mytho of the series?

Also, right on the money. Neo is the "chosen one" or the savior of humanity. Smith is his opposite... the "anti-Christ" for want of a better term, also the devil or fallen angel, since he once was part of the Matrix and "fell" when Neo destroyed him. Now he is "unplugged," on his own, and doing whatever he wants.

When can we start discussing those cool effects and out of nowhere gags(it was a fun brawl, what made it more fun was Neo ending it by doing his "superman thing", and all the Smiths looking speechless with a kind of WTF? look on their faces, )?

I also liked Neo's "You could have just asked", line to the Oracle's bodyguard. Neo's one cool hero.

You are SOOOOO right! I loved the effects. I can't believe that anyone can actually see the digital Neo as a digital effect... wire work always looked fake to me, but I learned quickly to accept it, and during the Neo/Smith(s) fight I just flowed with everything: the slo-mo, the rolls, the kicks, the flips, the flying, the cool signpost moves (even heard the hollow hum of the thing), and the sheer number of Smiths that showed up. I just accepted it. On the fourth viewing, I looked for places where Neo looked digital, but couldn't see it. So I'm back to just accepting everything I see.

Hugo Weaving ROCKS! I loved his mutliple reactions to Neo's flight at the end of that battle. Each one was just a bit different from the others. One was definately super-p*ssed, but another was merely curious, and another even impressed. I love seeing those reactions over and over.

Can't wait to see what others think!

 

[stripes]

Yeah, exactly! And I agree with the special effects, the car chase is the Helm's Deep of the Matrix!(as cited by a critic).

Yes, one Smith was annoyed, another was curious, another puzzled, and others with just blank stares, it was very interesting.

 

[stripes]

Reloaded's Ending....(Spoilers)

I was reading everything discussed in the other thread, and I would like to just take it in another direction concerning just the ending. Spoilers ensure of course.

The architect created the Matrix, he created it in his own perfect image(a Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden symbolism?). Anyway, the architech created this perfect world, but then he realized that in order for it to function properly, he knew humans would only accept it through choice. Of course that is flawed in itself, and the architect realizes this. If you give humans choice(accept the Matrix, or not), some will not adhere to the Matrix, hence, the 1% the Architech refers to now exists. And for this 1% the "real world" was created(Zion).

Now apparently the "one" is prophecied by this 1% batch. Neo(who is prophecied to be the "one") confronts the "source" to save Zion. Heres where it 's confusing: There were 5 Neo's before this one, and the Architect informs Neo that he is a anomoly(as were the others), an error to the 99.9% who have chosen to accept the Matrix. In order to counter this anomoly, the machines have set up this scenario where Neo has a choice, a choice that will save Zion.

When he chooses the door to the right(as he did in the previous five), the Matrix will be destroyed as will Zion. Although after, Neo will be able to reload both the Matrix and Zion from a code that only he knows which the machines have given him. The architech even tells Neo that he will pick a selected amount of females and males to help rebuild Zion, and eventually restart the whole cycle again. Eventually, the architect also mentions that the code will be more visible, and through these continuous cycles, he will be able to rid the Matrix of this anomoly. The previous five were more likely to choose Zion, but this six is overcome by love, hence he chooses the door on the left. Yet whats puzzling about this is that the Architech already knew Neo was going to make this choice, but wasn't the whole point of this was so that Neo would pick the door on the right to continue the usual pattern?

(Note: Corrections are welcomed of course.)

I know this is the jist of it anyway. so Revolutions will be the after effects of this new choice and how it will affect Zion and the Matrix itself. Im curious, why would the architech let Neo make this choice, unless he has something up his sleeve?
I can't wait for Revolutions...

 

[matrixfreak]

Smith and Neo

One thing no one has discussed (unless I'm blind) is the conversation Smith and Neo had before their big brawl. Smith Said "Somehow, something was copied or overwritten..." Not an exact quote, but you get the idea. At the end of the first Matrix when neo 'dived' into smith and destroyed him, it seems as if some of their code was swaped/shared, whatever you call it. So, since Smith was once part of the Matrix and had some control over the machines, so must Neo now as well (thus Bane's abiltiy to set off the EMP and Neo's abililty to stop the Sentinels). Does this make sense? Let's elaborate.

 

[pkgrl]

Good point, freak. And welcome to the board! :wave:

Smith did say that something happened... something he doesn't understand. He seemed pretty mad that Neo got up in that hallway: "I watched you die." But Neo's resurrection triggered a very illogical response in Smith: he attacked Neo with hatred. I think this is when he realized that Neo had a purpose.

However Smith was resurrected (even he doesn't know) he came to feel more, become more emotional. Maybe this is how he came to realize that some part of Neo might have been merged with him. There's some element of humanity in Smith now. He has desire, drive, ambition, or, in his words, purpose.

He goes into a speach about purpose just before he tries to overwrite (or remake) Neo, when other incarnations of him show up. Purpose drives him and defines him. That's what he decides to take from Neo: his purpose.

Maybe he couldn't because Neo isn't completely sure what his purpose is: he still doesn't know WHY he's the One.

Hey, here's something else I remembered. During the Key Maker's story about the building that houses the "source", Neo has another vision, one in which the building itself seems to be infected, growing blemishes or tumors that knit together, then explode. The fact that these blemishes are the color of fire, and that Neo explodes out of the building in a blaze, is it simply a vision of what his action would do to the Matrix?

 

[dbuckingham]

Agent Smith and Neo

Just thought that I would add my two cents worth on the Agent Smith v Neo theories.

It was quoted in a earlier post that when Agent Smith attacks Neo in the big brawl he attacks with Malice, I believe that this is partially due to the fact that Agent Smith hates Neo for what Agent Smith has become. At the end of the first movie where Neo defeats Agent Smith and as a result has changed him for the second movie (Agent Smith indicates in his talks with Neo that he has changed, something happened to him to make him different, he is no longer an Agent in the essence that he was, he is now a separate entity existing within the Matrix). And I believe this is where the a larger part of the issue is!

In the first movie where Agent Smith asks to speak to Morpheus alone, he tells Morpheus that he must have the access codes to Zion’s mainframes for he "cannot stand it here!, it is the stink of it" (something like that anyway). Smith indicates his hate and discuss of the Matrix and wants out of it and is prepared to do anything to get out. However this changed when Neo did what ever he did. Now Smith is trapped within the Matrix, the one place he did not want to be. That is enough reason for Smith to want revenge against Neo.

Having said that, i still see the possibility that his circumstances in things may have changed with his new "re-incarnation".

Also something that a few colleagues at work have discussed concerning Neo stoping the Sentinels within the tunnels: We are given the impression that Neo has stopped the Sentinels somehow, However, it is only moments after the sentinels are defeated that the second ship appears to rescue Neo, Trin and Morph, is it possible that this ship used its EMP to disable the Sentinels? The something different that Neo feels could have been interference/turbulence caused by the EMP shock wave.

I have sort of discredited this thought for I would not think that the other ship would have to have been powered down to fire the EMP, but it is possible that it could quickly power up again and go? Also they potentially would have said something in their discussions on board.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Tabitha]

Hello! Thought I'd weigh in, I have just seen the film, and am still processing it all. I have been having a look over the above posts, and am struck by how much detail you lot all remembered - I found the film to be an incredible info-dump. Did you all take notepads in or something?

I am quite impressed with the overall experience, although I am quietly hoping that there is an unexpected explanation for Neo's powers in the 'real world', and that if they do decide to go down the route of telling us that the 'real world' is actually the Matrix, they make a good job of it, 'cause right now it seems far too obvious that that is the solution.

As shown in all the previews, the scene where Neo fights the multiple Smiths for the first time was pretty amazing, but I personally thought the CGI was too obvious in one or two places, and that really detracted from my enjoyment of the scene. In particular the segment where Neo runs along the Smiths as he swivels around the poll. Just looked a bit too fake for me.

And choices, choices, choices. Neo's choice, offered by the Architect reminded me of the choice he was told he would have to make regarding Morpheus' death in the first film. Well, maybe it's not exactly the same, but the scenario, combined with him bringing Trinity back to life, much as he brought himself back to life at the end of the first film, seemed a little too repetitive.

I want to watch this again, soon, and many times! Forgive my nitpicking, I enjoyed it really!

 

[stripes]

Concerning the note pads

I also brought my lap top, just in case I got tired of using my pen. No, your right, its incrediable how we remembered. Anyway, I also noticed that the Burly Brawl seemed a little too digital. Here's possibly a explanation: before Reloaded was released, I read a article on this fight scene, and the Wachawskis intended it to look anime, so I can see why it was made to look almost cartoonish.

I agree, this fight scene was amazing, my favorite fight sequence next to the chase.

 

[timdgreat]

As far as im concerned i liked the CGI effects in the Burly Brawl, instead of subtracting from the experinece i thought they made it look cooler, I mean Neo and the Smiths are supposed to be faster and be able to move in ways that would be impossible for regular people, so when i saw scenes that were obviously CGI i just thought of them as the charecters doing something that we wouldnt see regularly so thats why it looks so diffrent

A new question i thought up after seeing it a 5th time:blush:

doesnt the archetect say that the matrix will be destroyed if Neo goes back to it to save Trinity? If he did then why wasnt it destroyed? (i beleive that the reason it isnt destroyed later is cause of Smith taking over everything, but it seems to be that he wouldnt have the power to stop it from being destroyed, so why wasnt it?

This point^ confuses me :rolly2:

 

[cersei]

Excellent Thread..more Spoilers!

wow, been looking around for some intelligent chat about Matrix Reloaded and am so glad to have found it here. here are my 2 cents anyway..

SPOILERS AHEAD...

This is how I understand the situation to be...The Architect made the first Matrix which though "perfect" to him was flawed and humans rejected it...hence the "Mother of The Matrix" (and contrary to some, I do not think this is the Oracle since on Neo suggesting her name, the Architect says, "Please!" as if to dismiss that silly notion) suggested a solution where the 1% humans whom would reject The Matrix can be placed into "Zion"...I believe this means a separate programme which though still plugged in, these "rebels" would make the "choice" (an artifical one as it seems, a theme in Reloaded) to be free...

However, depsite his best attempts, this near perfect soution still has an anomaly which turns up eventually...ie Neo...and if left unchecked, this anomaly will threaten the entire Matrix (and hence also Zion/Real world programme) thus all humans...

To solve this, the Oracle progamme is created, which with help of other programmes like Keymaker, guides Neo into this "prophecy" which purpose is NOT to free Zion but rather to guide Neo back to the meet the Architect, where he can be persuaded, due to his inherent love for humanity, to enter the Source door, thus reintegrating his code and allowing a reboot (hence The Matrix Reloaded...such a clever title in hindsight)...

This has already happenend 5 times before in what seems like 100 year cycles (and if war in Animatrix is accurate, then the REAL world must be about year 2600's but it appears to each Matrix like 1900's/2000's and to each Zion rebel as 2100's)...When Neo returns to the source, Zion is destroyed, both literally as those humans plugged into the programme is killed and also represented in Zion by the sentinel attack but Neo can choose 23 humans currently in Matrix Programme (by the way, 23 coz 23 human chromosomes?) to rebuild Zion ie inserted into a new Zion ver 6.0 programme...(hence fulfilling what Morpheus says back in The Matrix about another whom could "manipulate the Matrix and freed the first of us").

What is different this time? Trinity. I believe each reload/version of Matrix has only a few constants inc. Neo & Oracle but others like Morpheus and Trinity changes from version to version (since the Machines do allow them to have "free" runnning otherwise). This time, Neo's love for Trinity overwhelms his love for humanity in general...and even though the Architect purposely shows him that Trinity dying and in fact will die (another constant is the Machines do not seem capable of lying.....neither the Architect or Oracle ever does if you listen to what they say carefully), he still chooses emotion over logic and exits via the Matrix door instead

So this opens up a whole new can of worms since from this point on, things are no longer in Machines control as it had been right up to this point....Neo is changed since returning to the "real world" hence sensing something is wrong and being able to stop the sentinels as such...this causes him to fall into a coma.....

Bane too falls into a coma since he is taken over by Smith (also explaining why Smith can inhabit the "real world" since it is only another programme) he too can manipulate the real world which he did in foiling the counter-attack or saving himself from the sentinels...using this ability (first time anyway) seems to cause one to fall into a coma, perhaps as a failsafe by the machines as humans not meant to alter the real world programme..

Smith too is a new unknown element for the Machines...he is a self-replicating programme ie a virus and hence could seriously threaten the entire system since if left unchecked, could theoratically take over everyone in the Matrix/Zion.

So....still many questions left....

Who is the Mother of the Matrix? Since genders seem to be maintained ie "Father"is the Architect and Mother will be a female..the only 2 viable choices (if you think the Oracle is not) are Trinity...or Persephone (or is she an older version of Trinity as Merovingian is older version of Neo?)

Is Neo even human? It would seem more likely that Neo is a programme/anomaly that arises from the Matrix itself and not from any human host...it would explain why he can alter the Matrix and also why the 5 previous The One also looks like Neo/Keanu Reeves. Is his ultimate sacrifice to give himself up to save humans, thus unintentionally fulfilling the false prophecy?

How will it all end? "Happy ending" with humans being freed from machines? "Sad ending" with humans realising they can never be free of the Matrix/Zion? I think the clue as said by Counciller Hahn and The Oracle is Machines and Man working together and needing each other to survive....

well, roll on Revolutions!

 

[cersei]

My 2 cents

Nearly right but this is what I intrepret to be so...

The Architect made the first Matrix which though "perfect" to him was flawed and humans rejected it...hence the "Mother of The Matrix" (and contrary to some, I do not think this is the Oracle since on Neo suggesting her name, the Architect says, "Please!" as if to dismiss that silly notion) suggested a solution where the 1% humans whom would reject The Matrix can be placed into "Zion"...I believe this means a separate programme which though still plugged in, these "rebels" would make the "choice" (an artifical one as it seems, a theme in Reloaded) to be free...

However, depsite his best attempts, this near perfect soution still has an anomaly which turns up eventually...ie Neo...and if left unchecked, this anomaly will threaten the entire Matrix (and hence also Zion/Real world programme) thus all humans...

To solve this, the Oracle progamme is created, which with help of other programmes like Keymaker, guides Neo into this "prophecy" which purpose is NOT to free Zion but rather to guide Neo back to the meet the Architect, where he can be persuaded, due to his inherent love for humanity, to enter the Source door, thus reintegrating his code and allowing a reboot (hence The Matrix Reloaded...such a clever title in hindsight)...

This has already happenend 5 times before in what seems like 100 year cycles (and if war in Animatrix is accurate, then the REAL world must be about year 2600's but it appears to each Matrix like 1900's/2000's and to each Zion rebel as 2100's)...When Neo returns to the source, Zion is destroyed, both literally as those humans plugged into the programme is killed and also represented in Zion by the sentinel attack but Neo can choose 23 humans currently in Matrix Programme (by the way, 23 coz 23 human chromosomes?) to rebuild Zion ie inserted into a new Zion ver 6.0 programme...(hence fulfilling what Morpheus says back in The Matrix about another whom could "manipulate the Matrix and freed the first of us").

What is different this time? Trinity. I believe each reload/version of Matrix has only a few constants inc. Neo & Oracle but others like Morpheus and Trinity changes from version to version (since the Machines do allow them to have "free" runnning otherwise). This time, Neo's love for Trinity overwhelms his love for humanity in general...and even though the Architect purposely shows him that Trinity dying and in fact will die (another constant is the Machines do not seem capable of lying.....neither the Architect or Oracle ever does if you listen to what they say carefully), he still chooses emotion over logic and exits via the Matrix door instead

So this opens up a whole new can of worms since from this point on, things are no longer in Machines control as it had been right up to this point....Neo is changed since returning to the "real world" hence sensing something is wrong and being able to stop the sentinels as such...this causes him to fall into a coma.....

Bane too falls into a coma since he is taken over by Smith (also explaining why Smith can inhabit the "real world" since it is only another programme) he too can manipulate the real world which he did in foiling the counter-attack or saving himself from the sentinels...using this ability (first time anyway) seems to cause one to fall into a coma, perhaps as a failsafe by the machines as humans not meant to alter the real world programme..

Smith too is a new unknown element for the Machines...he is a self-replicating programme ie a virus and hence could seriously threaten the entire system since if left unchecked, could theoratically take over everyone in the Matrix/Zion.

 

[Tabitha]

Hey! You beat me to the "MOther" questions! Welcome to the board.

Neo "The Oracle..."
Architect "Please"

This "please" could either be interpreted as a "You silly humans and your mythologies for everything"; that they are referring to the same person/program, but the architect is just being disdainful... Or, the "please" could imply that suggesting that the rogue program, the oracle isn't in the Mother's league.

I think the "She" is either the oracle, or else someone or something we simply haven't met yet. I don't understand how it would be Persephone - why would she be spending all her years hanging around with that pretentious idiot? And Trinity? Well, there is the whole Messiah thing happening, but I certainly hope we don't encounter any *actual* pregnancies in the third movie :rollseyes: I doubt that Trinity is a newer incarnation of a female equivalent to Neo, as there seems to be the suggestion that his love for her seems to be a much stronger link to humanity than any of the previous "Ones" have had.

To solve this, the Oracle progamme is created, which with help of other programmes like Keymaker, guides Neo into this "prophecy" which purpose is NOT to free Zion but rather to guide Neo back to the meet the Architect, where he can be persuaded, due to his inherent love for humanity, to enter the Source door, thus reintegrating his code and allowing a reboot (hence The Matrix Reloaded...such a clever title in hindsight)...

This has already happenend 5 times before in what seems like 100 year cycles (and if war in Animatrix is accurate, then the REAL world must be about year 2600's but it appears to each Matrix like 1900's/2000's and to each Zion rebel as 2100's)...When Neo returns to the source, Zion is destroyed, both literally as those humans plugged into the programme is killed and also represented in Zion by the sentinel attack but Neo can choose 23 humans currently in Matrix Programme (by the way, 23 coz 23 human chromosomes?) to rebuild Zion ie inserted into a new Zion ver 6.0 programme...(hence fulfilling what Morpheus says back in The Matrix about another whom could "manipulate the Matrix and freed the first of us").

Ok, here's where I start to get very confused.

Neo is left with two choices:
1) Sacrifice Zion, but save the rest of humanity living out their lives in the Matrix, which will be rebooted once Neo goes through the door on his right?

Can anyone expand upon the new Zion? Does the Architect offer to unplug 23 people from the Matrix and 'give' them to Neo to start a real-world Zion from scratch? Or is this some kind of virtual Zion? Was Persephone's boyfriend (sorry, can't remember his name) a program anomaly, or is he living in the real world too? If it is a real-world one, why don't the few survivors pass down a more useful legend than the one about "The One"? Couldn't records be saved?
Have I totally misinterpreted this?

His other choice is to...
2) Try to save Trinity, knowing that he doesn't have enough time. Zion will still be destroyed, but the people plugged into the Matrix will also die (or be unplugged?), and the machines will survive without their little duracells for a while.

By the way, I really really like your interpretation:
"a solution where the 1% humans whom would reject The Matrix can be placed into "Zion"...I believe this means a separate programme which though still plugged in, these "rebels" would make the "choice" (an artifical one as it seems, a theme in Reloaded) to be free..."

Nice catch on the 23 chromosomes thing - but something else that might also be linked to this, did anyone notice the composition of the council? I am pretty sure it was about twenty, and there were definitely more women than men. Hmmm, the last generation, perhaps? And this might give the Councillor's discussion with Neo on the engineering level - about how Machines and humans will have to symbiotic on some level, even if the humans win - a bit more depth, perhaps?

As much as it pains me to think it, I am almost convinced that what we have known as "The Real World"tm for these past two films, is going to be revealed as another level of the matrix.
My reasoning? Almost certainly that Neo having superpowers in the real world just doesn't fit, does it? Smith being able to control a human being beyond the Matrix is also suspicious, but most of all, the things Smith said in the first movie, and the Architect echoed in Reloaded. Humanity wouldn't buy a perfect world? It resisted the programming when it was presented with perfection, and the day-to-day miseries of the late 20th C were much easier to sell to our psyches.

Lets take that one step further - what do we all do in our spare time? Read books, watch movies, play computer games, watch television. A lot of our lives are taken up by immersing ourselves in various works of fiction, and what better action-adventure role playing is there for the computer hacking, SF-fan minority than imagining we are all part of a huge conspiracy in a post-apocalyptic future, where nothing is what is seems, and everyone really IS out to get you.
So, you make a more complicated fiction for the minds of those who might actually figure it all out, well, maybe they wouldn't, but you kind of see what I'm getting at, right?

Ok, that was a stream of consciousness kind of thing, not sure if any of it made sense...



I think this movie raises far more questions than it answers, and I am very very happy I won't have to wait three years, like the gap between Star Wars movies!

 

[Tabitha]

Matrix Reloaded: The Bad...

Hey, just thought I would start a wee thread to air our thoughts on what was wrong with this sequel, what didn't quite work, what didn't look real, or just what didn't feel right.

Bearing in mind that many of the plot confusions will probably get cleared up come November, I still have some quibbles.
I like to think of myself as quite an intelligent moviegoer, 20+ years of formal education and not being confused by Mission: Impossible ( ) lead me to this conclusion. And yet there were parts of this movie I just couldn't follow. There were whole swathes of the Architect's monolgue that I would like to rewind and listen to again and again, as although I heard the words I wasn't quite sure what he meant. Likewise the whole Persephone/Meringon (Sp?) mini-arc. It isn't really very well explained who those two are. They have rogue programs working for them, but are they rogues too? When Persephone says that M used to be like Neo, does she really mean that? He used to be a one? Or just really hot?

And speaking of Persephone, the whole scene with the kiss was just lame. I mean really. I was Trinity, I would have just shot her, and damn the consequences - doesn't Morpheus keep saying that everything happens because that is the way it was meant to be. I love Monica Bellucci, and would liked to have seen more of her though, hopefully we will in the third film.

Reeves' acting in this film was pretty disappointing. In the original film, you can't deny that he pulled off shell-shocked and out-of-his-depth pretty well, but here he just seemed emotionless. I also don't think this script was too easy on the ears.

Now this one prolly sounds stupid, but I found the score to be very repetitive, and the foley stuff at times to be a bit ridiculous - case in point: during the "Burly Brawl" Neo throws one smith into a bunch of others, and I kid you not, the sound effect is straight out of a ten pin bowling alley. I know Neo can control the physical attributes of the Matrix, but really

As I said in another thread in here, at times I found the CGI to be a bit distracting, as if they wanted to take wire-fu and bullet time up to 11, so to speak. Watching the original film, the martial arts scenes almost look slow in comparison, but speed them up, and you lose something. Everything was happening so fast I didn't get to really savour the fights. (what's that? I'm a violent freak? not really)

Ok, this turned into a bit more of a rant than I meant, and I promise to start a "Glass-half-full" thread tonight or tomorrow.

 

[stripes]

That was explained quite nicely. What does this all mean? From what I read of your post, its quite simple: To counter the threat called "Neo", a solution is presented. Neo holds the mathematical code that restarts everything, and I assume the architech wants to crack this code, becasue cracking this code will make the Matrix exact, accurate, mathematically correct without any mathimatical error.

Thats the machines purpose, to rid the Matrix of this anomoly, which, in five cycles thus far, has been succesful. And assuming they are close to cracking the code. But the difference this time is that Neo does something else totally different. This is whats left to be answered, why did the architech allow Neo to have the choice of saving Trinity if he knew this Neo would be different then his predecessors? Since Neo is indeed different, and the architech knows this, he just screwed himself by having Neo choose the door on the left.

Allowing Neo to make this choice eliminates their resource, the human race which will be destroyed by this choice. But then theres another problem added on top of that, Agent Smith!! Now he pretty much corrupted the Matrix as well, cloning the whole human race!(well from what I understand, is this true?)

What is wrong with the architech, this seems like a no-win situation, whats the deal behind all of this? Did he underestimate Neo, the new virus Smith? Thats why Im wondering if he has some sort of trick up his sleeve, no way would the machines put them selves in this position.

But lets not forget that the architech mentions they have other "resources", but still why would they put the fate of humanity in the hands of Neo who pretty much damned them all? Neo just killed their energy source, their batteries.

 

[cersei]

Zion explanations...

Thank you for kind words. Well, let me try to answer your questions about Zion...

I believe Zion is (and always been) another sub-programme created by the Machines to continue enslave those resistant 1% to make them believe they are uplugged. However since the anomaly (Neo) persists each version of Matrix, the whole programme has to be rebooted.

This can be done for The Matrix but for those pesky resistant rebels in Zion, termination is necessary. However because the Machines can predict future resistant people whom will arise, a new ZIon must be created. Neo, if he returns to source, can identify these 23 people (with resistance tendencies?) whom can be "unplugged" (not literally but just made to think they are) to form Zion and start building a new population between breeding/freeing more minds....as I have said, it fits with Morpheus saying in first film about another "one" whom could manipulate the Matrix and freed the first of us...

Merovingian (a name for family believed to have descended form a child between Christ and Mary Madelyne) is another rogue programme which has been around and survived previous Matrix reloads (hence being "an old programme", having faced previous Neo's and also a man of power.....is he an old Neo which refuse to be deleted?)....

We have yet to be shown any REAL WORLD as what is shown is just another programme/layer of the Matrix...is there even a real world at all? Only the W Brothers will know and we will have to wait 6 months