The use of prophecy in fantasy
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Boneman
Well-Known Member
I have no problem with prophecies at all - unless they take over the story and drive it to death, with all the characters endlessly mooning on about it (see the Sword of Truth... no, on second thoughts, don't. Just take my word for it!)
So, Menion, I agree that yours would be a good one to have, as a background kind of thing, but are there unseen forces at work that need the prophecy to be fulfilled? You only have to look at John the Baptist if you want an early prophecy, and the Second Coming is enshrined in Christian Belief. Blimey, the Nostradamus industry still fits his prohecies to any major event...
In any event, (and I'm not saying this is happening in your story) people look for signs in the stars, their religion, their palms, their tarot cards, the weather, and they tend to make an event fit the prophecy - so if one of the band say, kills a mountain lion with his bare hands (we'll say the lion leapt over him, and plunged to his death in a rocky ravine) ordinary people will leap upon it as the prohecy fulfilled, because they want it to be true. That doesn't detract from the prohecy, but it gives a writer the chance to wield a prophecy without it taking away the free will of the protagonists - something that too many writers do, when they get so caught up in prohecy. So your band could be fulfilling the prophecies, but not to the letter.
Anyway good luck with it: go with your gut feeling and when it's finished you'll see if it works or not - can always re-write it umpteen times according to the prophecy: "No writer shall produce a first draft that is publishable immediately...."
So, Menion, I agree that yours would be a good one to have, as a background kind of thing, but are there unseen forces at work that need the prophecy to be fulfilled? You only have to look at John the Baptist if you want an early prophecy, and the Second Coming is enshrined in Christian Belief. Blimey, the Nostradamus industry still fits his prohecies to any major event...
In any event, (and I'm not saying this is happening in your story) people look for signs in the stars, their religion, their palms, their tarot cards, the weather, and they tend to make an event fit the prophecy - so if one of the band say, kills a mountain lion with his bare hands (we'll say the lion leapt over him, and plunged to his death in a rocky ravine) ordinary people will leap upon it as the prohecy fulfilled, because they want it to be true. That doesn't detract from the prohecy, but it gives a writer the chance to wield a prophecy without it taking away the free will of the protagonists - something that too many writers do, when they get so caught up in prohecy. So your band could be fulfilling the prophecies, but not to the letter.
Anyway good luck with it: go with your gut feeling and when it's finished you'll see if it works or not - can always re-write it umpteen times according to the prophecy: "No writer shall produce a first draft that is publishable immediately...."
Menion
ze Spaniard!
Thanks Boneman
Unless your initials are KJA, and I hear there is some doubt about that.
Thinking about prophecies that have been made - the obscure chuntering of Nostradamus, the Delphic oracles womblings and of course Cassandra (though I don't actually remember what she said precisely). Anyway, in a fantasy book, if the prophecy is too obscure, so that it is only obvious after the event, I'd find it remarkably annoying.
(as an aside to the thread)
I do like the "Good Omens" take on prophecy though . I won't repeat it here because of spoilers.
Also interested by the extensive use of Prophecy in sf - Babylon 5 with the Minbari and all the way through Battlestar Galactica (and if anyone follows up on this comment, please stay off details as not yet finished watching Series 5 on DVD - we're rationing ourselves on it.)
This has now got me thinking - how would I write prophecy?
(as an aside to the thread)
I do like the "Good Omens" take on prophecy though . I won't repeat it here because of spoilers.
Also interested by the extensive use of Prophecy in sf - Babylon 5 with the Minbari and all the way through Battlestar Galactica (and if anyone follows up on this comment, please stay off details as not yet finished watching Series 5 on DVD - we're rationing ourselves on it.)
This has now got me thinking - how would I write prophecy?
The Storyteller
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I think the problem with prophecy is that it (like many fantasy clichés) is often used merely because it sounds cool or seems like the thing to do, and not because it actually enhances the story or is a necessity to further the plot.
Also, as others have mentioned, it often gives away the entire plot. If there is a prophecy that a particular person is destined to stop a great evil, you know what's going to happen. There may be interesting twists along the way, but ultimately, you know how it is going to end. And I also dislike the idea that the hero's choices and results are predestined.
That said, I think prophecy can be done well. It can add interest, intrigue, and character development (if done properly). But I think any author should think twice before using it, and make sure it's really important to the story and not just something that seems cool or fun. I used to be very quick to add prophecy to my story ideas because I like certain aspects of it, but I'm trying to be careful not to use it too liberally or without good cause.
On that note, I would love some advice on an idea I'm currently working on. I have been debating if any kind of prophecy should be involved with the main character. In this story, prophecy would not be an absolute thing, but would instead be a likely outcome for a character or event. In this case, the character would have had a prophecy that they are capable of becoming a very powerful sorcerer (bad guy) who will win an important war (which of course, would have very negative consequences for the "good guys"). She would not know about the prophecy at first (nor would the audience), but would discover it later on in the series.
The thing I like about it is that it would be a huge struggle for her. She is already feeling drawn towards dark magics, and the prophecy makes her afraid of what she could become, and makes other people suspicious and distrusting of her. She feels a constant need to 'fight her fate', and often fears she will give in because it has been 'prophesied'. But, she discovers that nothing is set in stone and ultimately, she would overcome her fear and "deny her fate". Until then, it would be something she really struggled with and greatly feared, which could help to develop her character and give her a personal challenge to overcome.
The thing I don't like about it is I don't want to rely on prophecy if it is not needed or be cliché. She could simply just be a very powerful mage tempted to use dark magic and struggling against the desire, and thus have the conflict without the prophecy. I feel this might take some of the gravity out of her struggles and some of the interest out of the story, but I don't know. Does the "fighting her fate" seem too cliché? Is there potential for some kind of prophecy, or better to have nothing at all?
Sorry for a long comment! Any feedback is appreciated.
Also, as others have mentioned, it often gives away the entire plot. If there is a prophecy that a particular person is destined to stop a great evil, you know what's going to happen. There may be interesting twists along the way, but ultimately, you know how it is going to end. And I also dislike the idea that the hero's choices and results are predestined.
That said, I think prophecy can be done well. It can add interest, intrigue, and character development (if done properly). But I think any author should think twice before using it, and make sure it's really important to the story and not just something that seems cool or fun. I used to be very quick to add prophecy to my story ideas because I like certain aspects of it, but I'm trying to be careful not to use it too liberally or without good cause.
On that note, I would love some advice on an idea I'm currently working on. I have been debating if any kind of prophecy should be involved with the main character. In this story, prophecy would not be an absolute thing, but would instead be a likely outcome for a character or event. In this case, the character would have had a prophecy that they are capable of becoming a very powerful sorcerer (bad guy) who will win an important war (which of course, would have very negative consequences for the "good guys"). She would not know about the prophecy at first (nor would the audience), but would discover it later on in the series.
The thing I like about it is that it would be a huge struggle for her. She is already feeling drawn towards dark magics, and the prophecy makes her afraid of what she could become, and makes other people suspicious and distrusting of her. She feels a constant need to 'fight her fate', and often fears she will give in because it has been 'prophesied'. But, she discovers that nothing is set in stone and ultimately, she would overcome her fear and "deny her fate". Until then, it would be something she really struggled with and greatly feared, which could help to develop her character and give her a personal challenge to overcome.
The thing I don't like about it is I don't want to rely on prophecy if it is not needed or be cliché. She could simply just be a very powerful mage tempted to use dark magic and struggling against the desire, and thus have the conflict without the prophecy. I feel this might take some of the gravity out of her struggles and some of the interest out of the story, but I don't know. Does the "fighting her fate" seem too cliché? Is there potential for some kind of prophecy, or better to have nothing at all?
Sorry for a long comment! Any feedback is appreciated.
Boneman
Well-Known Member
Prophecy is a well-worn trope that can add intrigue to a story, because fate and freewill become interesting phenomena, that may or may not be avoided/twisted. Since it is necessarily 'future-gazing' it can hamper or aid a hero, especially if they become aware of it - the choice to accept it or deny it (and try to change it) bring some interesting dilemmas for them on their journeys. If you introduce the struggle against her destiny, try and avoid the Luke Skywalker scenario, but a good battle to actually maintain one's 'self' allows for very interesting character development, and seeing a hero struggle (and overcoming one way or the other) can be very satisfying, as long as the hero has learnt something along the way, and we see that.
Besides, prophecy is always open to interpretation, your hero could do something very unexpected, thinking she's avoiding the prophecy, only to find out she's actually fulfilled it...
Besides, prophecy is always open to interpretation, your hero could do something very unexpected, thinking she's avoiding the prophecy, only to find out she's actually fulfilled it...
I think that Eddings is a very good example for this discussion, as in his Belgariad and his Malloreon for example, prophesy in a sense IS the story, a wonderful reflection on storytelling. There is even a meta-discussion of prophesy, words and meaning going on. And I think it is Belgarath who explains that prophesy is necessary because words give meaning to events.
However, it's been quite a few years since I read Eddings, so apologies if my memories are faulty.
Most of the time a prophecy breaks internal consistency all by itself. How the hell are you supposed to figure out 10,000 years in advance how exactly things are going to work out? That means simulating the world to such a precise degree that the simulation is probably a real universe in its own right and it's inhabitants have conciousness, somehow using the entire precise state of the world as a starting point. If someone is powerful enough to cast a prophecy like that they are powerful enough to just annihilate all evil.
If a prophecy is a magical guarantee rather than a prediction, it's even more powerful: the war's won from before the start of the book because God cast a spell that would railroad the whole world along the right tracks, maybe with a coinflip at the end, to make things seem interesting.
Luckily most prophecies remain ambiguous enough to be viewed as in universe predictions/manipulations/plans, or extremely powerful spells that influence things but are not guarantees and are plausible in universe spells. Failing that I have to just pretend they're not there if I want to enjoy a book with one.
If a prophecy is a magical guarantee rather than a prediction, it's even more powerful: the war's won from before the start of the book because God cast a spell that would railroad the whole world along the right tracks, maybe with a coinflip at the end, to make things seem interesting.
Luckily most prophecies remain ambiguous enough to be viewed as in universe predictions/manipulations/plans, or extremely powerful spells that influence things but are not guarantees and are plausible in universe spells. Failing that I have to just pretend they're not there if I want to enjoy a book with one.
End of Time
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- 55
I prefer the way it became a major plot-point in the Dune novels, where the ability to see the future was as much a curse as a blessing and caused internal conflicts for those who managed to see the future unfold in their visions.
One of the biggest problems I have with prophecies in Fantasy is that they are always the same. It always hints at the protagonist being the hero or being the villain, leaving the whole thing wide open for the reader to wonder which of the two is going to end up becoming reality, and it feels as if there is always enough room for both to occur.
It is also breaks the story if it is already about good and evil facing each other in an epic battle. The duality of a situation tends to do a prophecy no favours, and vice versa.
One of the biggest problems I have with prophecies in Fantasy is that they are always the same. It always hints at the protagonist being the hero or being the villain, leaving the whole thing wide open for the reader to wonder which of the two is going to end up becoming reality, and it feels as if there is always enough room for both to occur.
It is also breaks the story if it is already about good and evil facing each other in an epic battle. The duality of a situation tends to do a prophecy no favours, and vice versa.
I like a good mystery of a prophecy to follow and guess along with as the story unfolds. Sometimes it's done well and can be a lot of fun to read.
Unfortunately, it turns out disappointing more often than not, as others have said, with the same obvious outcomes and pleasant resolutions. And I guess it's getting rather meta at this point. Some twists and ambiguities aren't enough anymore. Pulling off a real twist is hard, especially in works that can't or don't want to get too dark. And with all the overuse it all tends to go into the territory of "it says this, but there has to be a twist, so they want us to think it's that instead, but that would be boring, so maybe it's like this...", and in the end everything is predictable from some angle.
What I still like is a good solid threat waiting down the line.
Unfortunately, it turns out disappointing more often than not, as others have said, with the same obvious outcomes and pleasant resolutions. And I guess it's getting rather meta at this point. Some twists and ambiguities aren't enough anymore. Pulling off a real twist is hard, especially in works that can't or don't want to get too dark. And with all the overuse it all tends to go into the territory of "it says this, but there has to be a twist, so they want us to think it's that instead, but that would be boring, so maybe it's like this...", and in the end everything is predictable from some angle.
What I still like is a good solid threat waiting down the line.
Eli Grey
Well-Known Member
I've always been wary of using prophecy in my story but as I go along, it makes sense to have it but not be a focal point. I think it can ruin a story if it's driven too hard.
Eli Grey
Well-Known Member
I think the problem with prophecy is that it (like many fantasy clichés) is often used merely because it sounds cool or seems like the thing to do, and not because it actually enhances the story or is a necessity to further the plot.
Also, as others have mentioned, it often gives away the entire plot. If there is a prophecy that a particular person is destined to stop a great evil, you know what's going to happen. There may be interesting twists along the way, but ultimately, you know how it is going to end. And I also dislike the idea that the hero's choices and results are predestined.
That said, I think prophecy can be done well. It can add interest, intrigue, and character development (if done properly). But I think any author should think twice before using it, and make sure it's really important to the story and not just something that seems cool or fun. I used to be very quick to add prophecy to my story ideas because I like certain aspects of it, but I'm trying to be careful not to use it too liberally or without good cause.
On that note, I would love some advice on an idea I'm currently working on. I have been debating if any kind of prophecy should be involved with the main character. In this story, prophecy would not be an absolute thing, but would instead be a likely outcome for a character or event. In this case, the character would have had a prophecy that they are capable of becoming a very powerful sorcerer (bad guy) who will win an important war (which of course, would have very negative consequences for the "good guys"). She would not know about the prophecy at first (nor would the audience), but would discover it later on in the series.
The thing I like about it is that it would be a huge struggle for her. She is already feeling drawn towards dark magics, and the prophecy makes her afraid of what she could become, and makes other people suspicious and distrusting of her. She feels a constant need to 'fight her fate', and often fears she will give in because it has been 'prophesied'. But, she discovers that nothing is set in stone and ultimately, she would overcome her fear and "deny her fate". Until then, it would be something she really struggled with and greatly feared, which could help to develop her character and give her a personal challenge to overcome.
The thing I don't like about it is I don't want to rely on prophecy if it is not needed or be cliché. She could simply just be a very powerful mage tempted to use dark magic and struggling against the desire, and thus have the conflict without the prophecy. I feel this might take some of the gravity out of her struggles and some of the interest out of the story, but I don't know. Does the "fighting her fate" seem too cliché? Is there potential for some kind of prophecy, or better to have nothing at all?
Sorry for a long comment! Any feedback is appreciated.
Hi,
For myself, I only just included a prophecy after years of having a story without one. The past week or so, the idea of having one seems necessary and I am reluctant. I definitely don't want it to give anything away. I think I will downplay it as much as possible.
Ronald T.
Well-Known Member
I have to say that I love prophesies. They are the motivating tool to get protagonists off their asses and involved in an adventure that would never happen without the underlying danger of the prophesy. And in truth, I find that many stories involve prophesies even when those prophesies are subtle, and even when they're never openly mentioned. Much of everyday life is driven by prophesy -- personally created prophesy. Consider how individuals follow life-long personal dreams. Consider New Years resolutions. What are we doing but following our own pre-determined prophesies?
Of course, that's just one man's opinion. And what the hell do I know?
Of course, that's just one man's opinion. And what the hell do I know?
It seems like the use of prophesy is a shortcut that allows the author entirely skip having a back story or character motivation. It makes the protagonist a robot that went from idling on a farm to a freshly programmed warrior prince without the complications of having any real skin in the game or explaining how they become competent. It is much harder to write about the development of skills and desires than it is to simply impose them through a simple plot device.
However, I think part of the attraction is built into the foundation of fantasy itself - that the hero is randomly selected in a sense, which is important because the reader is also keen to be whisked away to a magical land, and that can only happen due to an equally irrational process. The prophesy serves the same irrational wish fulfillment that makes the plumber or accountant reading the fantasy more able to put themselves in the protagonists shoes. Prophesy is the rags to riches scenario for an impossible story in much the same way as the closet is for Narnia and buried alien tech or suspended animation is for sci fi. There isn't a lot of difference between Arthur and Buck Rogers in terms of their humble origins and how they make the reader feel that they too could participate.
However, I think part of the attraction is built into the foundation of fantasy itself - that the hero is randomly selected in a sense, which is important because the reader is also keen to be whisked away to a magical land, and that can only happen due to an equally irrational process. The prophesy serves the same irrational wish fulfillment that makes the plumber or accountant reading the fantasy more able to put themselves in the protagonists shoes. Prophesy is the rags to riches scenario for an impossible story in much the same way as the closet is for Narnia and buried alien tech or suspended animation is for sci fi. There isn't a lot of difference between Arthur and Buck Rogers in terms of their humble origins and how they make the reader feel that they too could participate.
Some books treat prophesy that way. In others it can be part of the back story, sometimes a very complex back story. And I have read books where the training of the protagonist to fill his/her role in the prophecy is a major part of the story -- so no freshly programmed warrior prince. Also, the farm boy to warrior prince is a cliche used more often to denigrate fantasy than it actually appears in fantasy novels.
Arthur's origins were far from humble. He was the son (albeit illegitimate son) of a king and a duchess, his birth engineered by Merlin presumably because Merlin knew what he could become. Even hidden away and his identity unknown, he was the foster son in a noble household.
Many children dream that their parents are not their real parents, that their real parents are rich/movie stars/royalty or whatever seems the most glamorous and exciting. It seems to be encoded in our DNA -- or at least in our collective memory since thousands of years ago -- which is why it appears not only in Arthur's story but in countless myths, legends, and fairy tales. It seems to speak to us on some deep subconscious level. I would hesitate to guess what it really means.
Someone mentioned Cassandra earlier. Her prophecies were not wobbly or obscure at all. They were quite accurate. But it was her curse that none would believe her. Therefore everyone who heard her prophecies had the free will to act just as stupidly and self-destructively as they wanted to. Only the end was predetermined, but only those who heard or read the story knew that.
But Arthur doesn't know any of that, and that's the point. If you read the story from Arthur's viewpoint, he doesn't have reason to believe he is anything more than an orphan. You're protesting that the manner of the destiny is important, but it really isn't. Arthur starts his story as an everyman, but it is revealed to him that the manner of his hidden birth presages something much greater.
Sorry to be a denigrater. Any trope in any genre can be pointed to as crutch, but that doesn't mean that any discussion of those tropes is any more of an attack on the genre than just pointing out that fantasy one of the most extreme forms of literary wish fulfillment there is.
I did not mean that prophesy alone prepares the protagonist completely, but it does explain why anyone feels the need to train her or why she is even able to complete the training. It is a stand-in for some of the character's agency.
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He really doesn't. He starts as the foster-son of a knight, training to become a knight himself. Which as far as the majority of the people hearing his story during the Middle Ages was an enviable position to be in, though of course squire to king was an enormous jump.
Oh, I don't dispute any of that. It's just that I get tired of hearing the farm boy argument which is even more tedious than the trope itself, and which many people (I'm not referring to you, because I don't know you or what you have read or what you know) seem to think is emblematic of what is really a very diverse genre. So I become very cross when I hear about farm boys becoming princes and wish someone would come up with a more interesting example to boost whatever point they are trying to make.
For the benefit of those of us who aren't immersed in fantasy, could you share an example of a non-complex use of prophecy that doesn't serve as agency for either the protagonist or antagonist?
Given the era the story comes from, I think an orphan knight-in-training is probably about as egalitarian you're going to get. Anything lower than that and Camelot would be a work of social revolutionary fiction. A serf attaining any advance in their station would be simply unbelievable to anyone of the time.
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