The use of prophecy in fantasy

The use of prophecy in fiction is by no means a monolithic subject. I don't think you can actually say "I like its use" or "I don't like its use". It's like saying I hate the use of wizards" or "I hate the use of Elves". It all depends on how it's done (and how well it's handled). In some stories the very point is that the idea of free will is moot (Vonnegut used this not in prophecy but in a "we've seen the future and you can't change it" venue). The story may be built around a futile struggle. Or the story may go just the other way, that no matter its source prophecies can fail. Or it might simply be window dressing and have little to do with the plot at all.

Prophecy works because it has been (and still is) a part of the human psyche. Otherwise we wouldn't have all the "hoopla" about 2012 or the writings (real and supposed) of Nostradamus. The History channel is running specials on prophecy and they've put on a series called the Nostradamus Effect.

Prophecy can be a workable, usable plot device, or it can be an over used, trite crutch. It depends more on the writer and the story than the device.
 
Now, I know the Dark Lord of Derkholme is meant as a send-up of fantasy cliches - it is also a well written fantasy story. I think prophecy is both used well, and sent up nicely, as part of that story.
There are two oracles, side by side, one in a white building, the other in a black building. The protaganists go in and ask a question, and get an answer on a slip of paper. As I recall they ask the same question of both Oracles and get different answers. The answers do ultimately help them - but in a roundabout and funny way.


In general terms, prophecy and the hidden king coming to save us seems to underlie and awful lot of traditions, both religious (Judaism and Christianity) and folk legends - thinking in particular of Arthur.
Prophecy can be a tool that gives people hope that one day the problem will be fixed, so this gives them a boost to help them carry on with their currently miserable lives. You don't look for a prophet unless your life is currently miserable, or you think the world is seriously flawed, IMHO. After all, if you are happy, you wouldn't want the future to be different from the present.
 
As far as religious prophecy goes, my understanding is that the Old Testament prophets weren't predicting the future in the way seers do in fantasy stories, but were giving the people a visionary (not literal) image of what would result from their failure to return to the path of God. This type of prophecy seems almost entirely absent from fantasy fiction, for some reason. (Maybe you could even define fantasy fiction as something that collapses the metaphorical into the literal?)
 
First a disclaimer:

In my own writing none of my characters are hidden kings or saviors or heroes disguised as farm boys. There are farm boys and shepherd lads, and sons of fishermen who have been transformed by circumstances ... into soldiers and scouts and servants and temple acolytes, and they never turn out to be of exalted birth. Although I do have to admit that there is one character of high birth and possibly high destiny who has been hidden away for her own protection, but she's a princess cunningly disguised as a princess, so I don't think she really counts.

That being said, I have no particular problem with the hero of humble or obscure origins. As Montero points out, he has been around for a long, long time. And the fantasy writers who have been giving him such a hard work-out since the 1980's are themselves working within a venerable tradition of mythology, folklore, and drama: the prince raised by shepherds, the humble squire who pulls the sword from the stone, the child of high birth lost in the wilderness when her guardian exits pursued by a bear, the despised younger son mistaken all his life for a fool, the ordinary boy who slays giants, the common soldier who stays awake and follows the princesses to their mysterious midnight festivities when the sons of kings all fall asleep ... the list is endless, and we are all familiar with parts of it, so I won't belabor that point any further. It's a theme that has been striking a deep chord in the human heart probably as long as there have been human hearts. And I suspect that with most of the writers who employ it they aren't doing it because everyone else does it, but because it works for them, too.

But when it comes to prophesies, I have to plead guilty.

Years ago, when I was writing my first series of books, I recklessly had a wise woman speak a prophesy at one point in the action. To be fair to myself, I had already worked out how that prophesy would come about. But by the time that I was writing the later books the story had wandered off in different directions, so that working out the prophesy became such a task, I promised myself I would never, ever, write a prophesy into one of my stories again.

Except, well, the series I am writing now pretty much revolves around a prophesy that is mentioned in the very first chapter. Because for one reason or another, fortunately or unfortunately, that sort of thing strikes a chord in my human heart, regardless of any challenges it might present to me as a writer.

And it seems to me that the one challenge we should always, as writers, accept, is to tell the stories that have the most powerful hold on our own imaginations. If this is true, the only question remaining is: do we have, or can we develop, the skill to communicate those stories so that they have an equal power for our readers?
 
As regards the farmboys issue, I agree, and I wouldn't want to give the impression that I think any book with such a character is inherently bad or anything like that. Like prophesy it has to be treated carefully, but there's a lot of concepts in SF and fantasy that are like that and also have the potential to work really well. Some of the first fantasy I read - excluding The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings - was by David Eddings, and I suppose it's made me personally wary of rewriting the Belgariad every time I reach for the keyboard!

Looking at Second Chance's paintings yesterday made me realise something about fantasy that I've not quite put into words before: for me, a great deal of the pleasure of fantasy - more so than SF, for no particular reason - comes from seeing amazing new things. And I think that sense of being awed, by places, people or adventures, is strengthened by having an inexperienced guide whose jaw will also drop as ours do. Also, and quite rightly, we do instinctively root for the underdog. There's certainly plenty of room for such people in fantasy from Tolkein to China Mieville.

But the more I think about this the more I think personal taste comes in. Prophesy doesn't strike that much of a chord with me, and would seem to me too difficult to use to be worth the fun/satisfaction I'd get out of doing it well. But it can be done well despite its dangers, and as you say, Teresa, a good writer can pass that sense of, er, chord-striking onto the readership. Except you've put it rather more eloquently than that: your last paragraph strikes me as spot-on.

(EDIT: just realised I didn't put the word "wouldn't" in the first sentence when I first posted this! Sometimes I am awed by my own idiocy.)
 
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Teresa Edgerton said:
Although I do have to admit that there is one character of high birth and possibly high destiny who has been hidden away for her own protection, but she's a princess cunningly disguised as a princess, so I don't think she really counts.
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Hiding in plain sight - the best disguise there is!

I can't comment on prophecies in fiction, since I don't read enough fantasy, but I would like to echo Hilarious Joke in saying how much I'm enjoying everyone's opinions and the (as usual) very erudite and considered thoughts on display.
 
I wasn't thinking of anything so highbrow! Although funnily enough the semi-detective story I thought of did concern a letter - some valuable stamps have been pasted onto an ordinary envelope and left in the letter rack.
 
A badly used device is annoying and prophesy is probably one of those off-the-shelf devices that can be more annoying than some others.
 
Like I said it can go either way, any plot device can be handled poorly. The prophey device has been used poorly, but it has also made possible some of the seminal works in the genre. So, that's why I took the don't condemn the plot device itself position. I find more and more as I've read a greater number of books more and more (didn't I just say that?) plot devices become familiar. It's been a long time since a book or movie actually surprised me. It all seems to be in how well most story parts are put together.
 
Haven't read anyone else's answers, so apologies if I am repeating anothers view but having seen this topic flash up on the forum for a couple of days now thought I'd give my view on it:

I like prophecy in fantasy! :D I view it very much like the use of 'Legend'; it's there to assist and guide the reader/viewer in a certain direction, as a form of reference and if used effectively can add to the mystery/criticality/reverence etc etc etc of a story.

The real problem is if you depend on the legend or prophecy too much. After all, you're reading or watching the story unfold and it is 'that particular point/time' in the story that most interest is focused. Of course there will be interest in the past or possible future of the storyline but you don't want that past or future to weigh too heavily on your thoughts of the moment. IMO :p
 
Prophecy is a marvelous device, providing the author understands its use.

In our real lives we are confronted with minor prophets daily: They exist in news shows, in advertisements and in conversations with everyone from hairdressers to TV repairmen. And in our real lives we choose whether or not to pay heed to any particular prophet. The act of heeding or not heeding a prophet says a great deal about the character who makes the decision.

So if a seven-foot-tall woman rides into town on a unicycle, proclaiming that sun will rise in the west tomorrow, and our protagonist bases his/her actions upon that prophecy, we have a very strange protagonist.

But if the seven-foot-tall prophetess claims that the jihadists will conquer unless our protagonist can win the heart of Bin Laden's fifteenth daughter ... whom we later find out is living in a Western city and is papa's favorite, AND has begun showing an interest in peace--well, that's a different kind of challenge altogether.
 
In our real lives we are confronted with minor prophets daily: They exist in news shows, in advertisements and in conversations with everyone from hairdressers to TV repairmen. And in our real lives we choose whether or not to pay heed to any particular prophet. The act of heeding or not heeding a prophet says a great deal about the character who makes the decision.
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This seems off-topic to me; the discussion is about the use of prophecy as a literary device in fantasy. In fantasy, prophecies virtually always turn out to be true. This is supposed to foreshadow certain events while leaving enough scope for things to turn out unexpectedly (satisfying the prophecy in an unpredictable way) or to let the reader guess how that prophecy will turn out.

I guess I'm just a bit unsure what your point is here.
 
I agree with you, HJ, that prophesies in literature nearly always come true. But it's the possibility that the prophet might not be trustworthy that contributes to the suspense. (Besides, of course, the whole ambiguity thing.)
 
I reckon the use of prophecies in a novel like that of the farm boys destiny to become the greatest warrior-mage-king-of-the-world spoils it for me because to me that prophecy has already told me the path the farm boy is going to take, might as well read the last page and get it over with coz the hero is not going to die or their won't be any interesting plot twists.
 
It reminds me of that detective show Columbo, where you always knew who did the murder from the start. The question was how Columbo would find the murderer out, not who the murderer was. I suppose the writing, and the plotting, counts for a lot here.

I can't say I like prophesy much as a storytelling technique, and it tends to take stories into an area of magic that doesn't much interest me, but I can't see that it could never work. Perhaps if less prophesies were about "X shall save/threaten the world" it might seem a bit fresher to me.
 
Tobytwo said:
Perhaps if less prophesies were about "X shall save/threaten the world" it might seem a bit fresher to me.
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I think "X shall fail to eat his whole bag of chips before they go cold" might find readers less than gripped ...
 
Somebody else might have mentioed this before, but, since I'm writing my first book/novel I have a prophecy in it, but it's not the tipical prophecy where you know whos who in it, its ike an obscure one, theres many people mentioned in it, example.... The Mountain, The Axe, The Savior.... but it doesnt say who is who.... wait I don't think thats understandable I'll try and explain better.

It could point to any of the characters, you would only find out when a certain part of it happened, if you get the meening, like The Savior could be any part of the
mercenary band, it does'nt specifie who.

Is that a more likable kind of Prophecy?

A.T.P
 
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