juleska
The North remembers
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2011
- Messages
- 879
Many of us believe that the events at the end of her last chapter in ADWD mean the prophecy has been fulfilled and she can again bear children.
The Dragon Has Three Heads
- Thread starter ChasenFate
- Start date
-
- Tags
- george r r martin
BetaWolf
Keith A. Manuel
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2013
- Messages
- 527
I'm sort of with John here. 
Mostly. I think that Jon Snow is Ned Stark's nephew rather than his son. And so Master Aemon's great-nephew and Dany's nephew. So that would bring in a lot of connections for the poor boy (if he survived . . .).
But, hmm, well, I have a sneaking suspicion that somehow the Lannister twins end up being Targaryens. Tywin's sister tells Tyrion that he is his father's true son in the third book (well, you need to think on whether she meant that literally or not--that Tyrion was cut from the same cloth as Tywin). The Mad King apparently got a bit amorous with Tywin's bride on her wedding night, so Jaime and Cersei could be technically bastards. Could explain a few things.
Mostly. I think that Jon Snow is Ned Stark's nephew rather than his son. And so Master Aemon's great-nephew and Dany's nephew. So that would bring in a lot of connections for the poor boy (if he survived . . .). But, hmm, well, I have a sneaking suspicion that somehow the Lannister twins end up being Targaryens. Tywin's sister tells Tyrion that he is his father's true son in the third book (well, you need to think on whether she meant that literally or not--that Tyrion was cut from the same cloth as Tywin). The Mad King apparently got a bit amorous with Tywin's bride on her wedding night, so Jaime and Cersei could be technically bastards. Could explain a few things.
Boaz
Happy Easter!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 6,550
Handsome John, if Dany cannot bear children, then yes she'll need a surrogate to bear an heir to continue her dynasty...
I think we'd all agree that there may be two other Targaryens or half-Targaryens males out there... Aegon and Jon. But are there any females? My craziest theory says yes... Cersei. (I won't go into it here, but the theory says Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are all Dany's half-siblings.) But I doubt Cersei will live long enough to win Dany to her side...
So that means a non-Targaryen princess will marry Dany's Targaryen (or half-Targaryen) husband. Since I think that most of us think this will be Jon, current events at the Wall not withstanding, then Jon will need a fruitful girl to bear children... Since Dany cannot fail in this (she has no other siblings, uncles, or cousins to inherit after her), she and Jon/Aegon must have a princess that will bear children. Remember how Jon Arryn wanted a bride that he knew was capable of bearing children? Well, I think Dany will want the same. At first glance, this may put Cersei at the top of the list... But Dany will also need a strong political alliance with this marriage... so Cersei is out. Arianne could be a candidate as Dany's first cousin, but she's not proven herself to be fertile. Sansa is also a tempting choice in order to secure Baelish's loyalties, i.e. the Vale and the Riverlands and the North, but she's not yet shown she can bear children... but Jon may like this choice since he's got a serious Jones for redheads. (It's not totally gross, I mean Jon is probably more closely related to Dany than Sansa.)
But if Dany is looking for a political alliance to a great house with a princess who's known to be fertile then Asha Greyjoy, Margaery Tyrell, and Jeyne Westerling are her choices.
Yes, Margaery has been married to three consecutive Baratheons, but the Tyrells used to be stauch Targ loyalists. Mace, Olenna, and the family may smell the roses and avoid getting pruned by allying with the Targs. Plus, Pycelle has been giving Margaery moontea. If you're asking why, then slap yourself and then go pour yourself a whiskey to catch up with me.
Asha Greyjoy. If I remember correctly, didn't Asha think she was pregnant once? She's also the niece of Euron.
And finally there is plain Jeyne. Catelyn noted right away that Jeyne had great hips for birthing. Jeyne was actually noted to be pregnant with Robb's son. And politically speaking, Jeyne could help bring back the Westerlands to the Iron Throne while also bringing in the loyalty of the Stark supporters in the Riverlands and the North.
But mayhaps the curphecy (half curse, half prophecy... by the way I just made that up) simply means that Dany will name her child Drogo... i.e. "After you name your son Drogo, then he'll be returned to you." I am so smart. S, M, R, T.
Edit: Beta posted before I finished mine...
Beta, I personally want to congratulate you on seeing the possiblities of Aerys II and his penchant for taking what was not his. Now, I'll launch into A+L=J. We know Aerys raped his own wife and Dany was conceived. We also know Aerys loved/lusted after Joanna Lannister. We all know Cersei and Jaime have almost platinum blonde/golden hair. We know that Tywin resigned as Hand. We all know Lyanna disappeared from court and Rhaegar was blamed. We know that Brandon demanded justice, but Rhaegar was nowhere to be found. Robert says Rhaegar raped Lyanna, but everyone else claims that Rhaegar was honorable to the very core of his being. We also know that Rhaegar was already married and that abducting Lyanna or even eloping with her could easily cause a rebellion by the Starks, if not the Martells as well.
I think Aerys asked Tywin (only twenty at the time) to be be Hand because Aerys lusted after Joanna. He'd often send Tywin out on business and then Aerys would seduce/rape Joanna. Knowing that Tywin would rebel and that the Lannisters would be annihilated, Joanna kept her silence. After the Defiance of Duskendale, Aerys' paranoia and megalomania grew and he became a serial rapist. The Kingsguard overlooked all this. Lyanna caught Rhaegar's attention with her sense of justice and her courage. She also caught Aerys' eye and he took her by force once they got back to King's Landing. Lyanna was not as easily cowed as Joanna and she told Rhaegar. Rhaegar smuggled Lyanna to the safest place he knew, the Tower of Joy. But before he could get back to KL and confront his father, the Arryns, Baratheons, Starks, and Tullys had risen in revolt. Rhaegar was faced with the choice of confronting his father which would have divided the Targaryens and probably ended with all their deaths or putting down the rebellion and using his new power and glory to force Aerys to abdicate. Rhaegar chose the latter and died.
Handsome John, did you ever see the movie The Italian Job? Despite having Donald Sutherland, Edward Norton, and Charlize Theron... it's very average. But the scene where Jason Statham (playing the character Handsome Bob) seduces the cable girl is brilliant. It is the best seduction scene.... ever. Ever.
I think we'd all agree that there may be two other Targaryens or half-Targaryens males out there... Aegon and Jon. But are there any females? My craziest theory says yes... Cersei. (I won't go into it here, but the theory says Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are all Dany's half-siblings.) But I doubt Cersei will live long enough to win Dany to her side...
So that means a non-Targaryen princess will marry Dany's Targaryen (or half-Targaryen) husband. Since I think that most of us think this will be Jon, current events at the Wall not withstanding, then Jon will need a fruitful girl to bear children... Since Dany cannot fail in this (she has no other siblings, uncles, or cousins to inherit after her), she and Jon/Aegon must have a princess that will bear children. Remember how Jon Arryn wanted a bride that he knew was capable of bearing children? Well, I think Dany will want the same. At first glance, this may put Cersei at the top of the list... But Dany will also need a strong political alliance with this marriage... so Cersei is out. Arianne could be a candidate as Dany's first cousin, but she's not proven herself to be fertile. Sansa is also a tempting choice in order to secure Baelish's loyalties, i.e. the Vale and the Riverlands and the North, but she's not yet shown she can bear children... but Jon may like this choice since he's got a serious Jones for redheads. (It's not totally gross, I mean Jon is probably more closely related to Dany than Sansa.)
But if Dany is looking for a political alliance to a great house with a princess who's known to be fertile then Asha Greyjoy, Margaery Tyrell, and Jeyne Westerling are her choices.
Yes, Margaery has been married to three consecutive Baratheons, but the Tyrells used to be stauch Targ loyalists. Mace, Olenna, and the family may smell the roses and avoid getting pruned by allying with the Targs. Plus, Pycelle has been giving Margaery moontea. If you're asking why, then slap yourself and then go pour yourself a whiskey to catch up with me.
Asha Greyjoy. If I remember correctly, didn't Asha think she was pregnant once? She's also the niece of Euron.
And finally there is plain Jeyne. Catelyn noted right away that Jeyne had great hips for birthing. Jeyne was actually noted to be pregnant with Robb's son. And politically speaking, Jeyne could help bring back the Westerlands to the Iron Throne while also bringing in the loyalty of the Stark supporters in the Riverlands and the North.
But mayhaps the curphecy (half curse, half prophecy... by the way I just made that up) simply means that Dany will name her child Drogo... i.e. "After you name your son Drogo, then he'll be returned to you." I am so smart. S, M, R, T.
Edit: Beta posted before I finished mine...
Beta, I personally want to congratulate you on seeing the possiblities of Aerys II and his penchant for taking what was not his. Now, I'll launch into A+L=J. We know Aerys raped his own wife and Dany was conceived. We also know Aerys loved/lusted after Joanna Lannister. We all know Cersei and Jaime have almost platinum blonde/golden hair. We know that Tywin resigned as Hand. We all know Lyanna disappeared from court and Rhaegar was blamed. We know that Brandon demanded justice, but Rhaegar was nowhere to be found. Robert says Rhaegar raped Lyanna, but everyone else claims that Rhaegar was honorable to the very core of his being. We also know that Rhaegar was already married and that abducting Lyanna or even eloping with her could easily cause a rebellion by the Starks, if not the Martells as well.
I think Aerys asked Tywin (only twenty at the time) to be be Hand because Aerys lusted after Joanna. He'd often send Tywin out on business and then Aerys would seduce/rape Joanna. Knowing that Tywin would rebel and that the Lannisters would be annihilated, Joanna kept her silence. After the Defiance of Duskendale, Aerys' paranoia and megalomania grew and he became a serial rapist. The Kingsguard overlooked all this. Lyanna caught Rhaegar's attention with her sense of justice and her courage. She also caught Aerys' eye and he took her by force once they got back to King's Landing. Lyanna was not as easily cowed as Joanna and she told Rhaegar. Rhaegar smuggled Lyanna to the safest place he knew, the Tower of Joy. But before he could get back to KL and confront his father, the Arryns, Baratheons, Starks, and Tullys had risen in revolt. Rhaegar was faced with the choice of confronting his father which would have divided the Targaryens and probably ended with all their deaths or putting down the rebellion and using his new power and glory to force Aerys to abdicate. Rhaegar chose the latter and died.
Handsome John, did you ever see the movie The Italian Job? Despite having Donald Sutherland, Edward Norton, and Charlize Theron... it's very average. But the scene where Jason Statham (playing the character Handsome Bob) seduces the cable girl is brilliant. It is the best seduction scene.... ever. Ever.
Last edited:
Couple other half targs out there under this theory: Myrcella and Tommen Baratheon (both half Targaryen)
Boaz
Happy Easter!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 6,550
It is known.
Barristan was actually born Chucknaerys, illegitimate son of King Jaehaerys II. His hair is not silver-white because he's old, it's silver-white because he's half-Targ. He's actually Dany's uncle. The reason he undertook the suicide mission to Duskendale was to save his own brother. He slew Malys the Monstrous to save his family from further predations from usurpers.
Chucknaerys can ride a dragon... they're afraid of him.
Barristan was actually born Chucknaerys, illegitimate son of King Jaehaerys II. His hair is not silver-white because he's old, it's silver-white because he's half-Targ. He's actually Dany's uncle. The reason he undertook the suicide mission to Duskendale was to save his own brother. He slew Malys the Monstrous to save his family from further predations from usurpers.
Chucknaerys can ride a dragon... they're afraid of him.
The Imp
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 5,377
On board with the Jaime/Cersei as targs theory? Not entirely. This doesn't answer the question really, but here's what I think:
1) Tywin would not knowingly allow Aerys to sleep with his wife. At least not more than once.
2) Tywin is not fond of Tyrion and often treats him as though he were not his son.
a. Will not name him as heir to Casterly Rock
b. Put him in positions seemingly designed to get him killed or humiliated
c. The most recent episode of the show (not cannon, I know, but GRRM is involved with the production) he makes a point of saying that he has to support Tyrion according to the laws of men because he can't prove that Tyrion isn't his son.
3) Tywin dotes over his other two beautiful children.
a. Wants to make it so Jaime can leave the Kingsguard to become his heir.
b. Obviously knows his kids are procreating with each other but turns a blind eye. It's never spelled out that he knows, but how could the most powerful and well-informed man in the world not know what everyone else knows?
4) Tywin left his position as hand of the king when Jaime and Cersei were 15 and Tyrion was 7... which means that if Aerys had been sleeping with Joanna, then Tywin either didn't know about it or was able to keep himself in check for 15 or 7 years, which doesn't seem likely.
5) Aerys did not want Cersei to marry Rhaegar, which there's an outside possibility that he didn't want them to marry because they were brother and sister. Traditionally that hasn't been a problem for Targaryens though.
6) The only examples of incest in the world we've been presented are the Lannister twins and a long line of family tradition in House Targaryen.
... there's also the possibility that they are all children of Chucknaerys because women have been known to conceive just by being in the same county as him.
joshrackley
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2013
- Messages
- 156
To expand on point number 5: to me it actually seems that had Cersei (and therefore Jaime) been the offspring of Aerys then he would have been more inclined to allow the union of Cersei to Rhaegar because of that "keeping the bloodlines pure" mentality. He may not have agreed to it in the end but he probably wouldn't have been so dismissing of the idea.
In my mind, this is just a bit more circumstantial evidence that Tyrion is the only possible Targannister (Tyrion Targannister does have a certain ring to it, and maybe Jon Stargaryan to go with it
).
GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 56
I don't buy Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion as Targs, though I have several reasons, I think the best of the lot is if that were true, we'd be up to our eyeballs in Targs. Those 3, plus Myrcella and Tommen. Throw in R+L=J, and then is he or isn't he Aegon arc and you've got a giant mess. They'd no longer be so special and rare and there wouldn't have been such a big point made of the last dragon. And then there's Dany struggling, scraping and clawing her way back to Westeros only to find she's waaaaayyyyyy down the list for rightful heir claim? Yeah, sorry Dany, Jaime's been here all along--who knew? Or is it Jon or Aegon who has the better claim since Jaime took a vow?
I also don't buy that Tyrion alone is a Targ. Very simply: Targs are pretty, Tyrion is not.
And finally, I believe the reason Tywin hates Tyrion SOOOO much is because this ugly, snarky, whoring, stunted little man is more like Tywin than either of his other children ever will or could be. Tyrion thinks like him, he manipulates like him, not as well yet, but he's learning very quickly. They even like the same whores. (oops liked)
I also don't buy that Tyrion alone is a Targ. Very simply: Targs are pretty, Tyrion is not.
And finally, I believe the reason Tywin hates Tyrion SOOOO much is because this ugly, snarky, whoring, stunted little man is more like Tywin than either of his other children ever will or could be. Tyrion thinks like him, he manipulates like him, not as well yet, but he's learning very quickly. They even like the same whores. (oops liked)
Whether Tyrion is a targ is a subject of a lot of debate, but I think there are some pretty clear clues that Tywin suspects that Tyrion might be a Targ. The TV series recently alluded to this as well.
As for Targ's being "Pretty", I don't think that's the case. Most Targs have light hair and eyes, and if that equates to "Pretty", then okay (also keeps Tyrion in the running).
Maester Aemon was not noted for his beauty, for instance, and Maelys the Monstrous was a Targ (on the Blackfyre line), and had two heads... Lots of inbreeding does not equate to "Pretty", and it often results in deformities (like... Tyrion perhaps?)
As for Targ's being "Pretty", I don't think that's the case. Most Targs have light hair and eyes, and if that equates to "Pretty", then okay (also keeps Tyrion in the running).
Maester Aemon was not noted for his beauty, for instance, and Maelys the Monstrous was a Targ (on the Blackfyre line), and had two heads... Lots of inbreeding does not equate to "Pretty", and it often results in deformities (like... Tyrion perhaps?)
TK-421
I Do Not Sow
Really?
If you are referring to the tongue lashing Tyrion got when he asked to be lord of Casterly Rock, I think there were too emotions there to say.
Plus, I always thought this theory was truly a crock of ...
I thought that was very clear in the show.
As for the overall theory... it does seem far fetched that Tywin would allow that to happen.
As for the overall theory... it does seem far fetched that Tywin would allow that to happen.
GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 56
I can see how that "since I can't prove you're not mine" comment could lead us to believe Tywin has suspicions but I honestly think it's more a "I am the great Tywin Lannister, I couldn't possibly have fathered this Imp" kind of thing.
I might be mashing Tv/Book realities together, so forgive me and enlighten if that is the case, but I think of the Lannisters as having light hair and eyes, but in say a Scandinavian way--fair skin, blonde hair, and blue or green eyes. Whereas the Targs make me think of something closer to albino, save the eyes--white/silvery hair, and violet eyes, something you wouldn't see ANYWHERE else.
Now that I think of it, I guess Dany/Vis WOULD look different because they're getting two copies of Targ genes, whereas the potential bastards only 1. Funny, Jon looks nothing like a Targ either, but I eagerly hopped right aboard the R+L=J bandwagon. Maybe it's that I just really don't want the Lann kids to be Targs--that's a good enough reason, right?
I might be mashing Tv/Book realities together, so forgive me and enlighten if that is the case, but I think of the Lannisters as having light hair and eyes, but in say a Scandinavian way--fair skin, blonde hair, and blue or green eyes. Whereas the Targs make me think of something closer to albino, save the eyes--white/silvery hair, and violet eyes, something you wouldn't see ANYWHERE else.
Now that I think of it, I guess Dany/Vis WOULD look different because they're getting two copies of Targ genes, whereas the potential bastards only 1. Funny, Jon looks nothing like a Targ either, but I eagerly hopped right aboard the R+L=J bandwagon. Maybe it's that I just really don't want the Lann kids to be Targs--that's a good enough reason, right?
Boaz
Happy Easter!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 6,550
During my re-read today, I came across the first mention of Rhaegar in Daenerys I of AGOT.
Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.
This started me thinking, as I walked around a lake..... Rhaegar and the woman he loved. What was Rhaegar doing at the Tower of Joy? What was his relationship with Lyanna? What was his relationship with Aemon? What did he read that changed the course of his life? Was he really trying to bring about the Prince that was promised? What was his deal with prophecy? Does TPTWP have anything to do with the dragon has three heads? Who will be the three heads? Well.... the first three heads were Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys.
And it hit me... Rhaegar's two kids with Elia were named Aegon and Rhaenys. Has anyone posted this before? I can't be the first to think Rhaegar was actually naming his kids after the Conqueror and his sister-wives.
Now maybe as wonderful as some people thought Rhaegar was, he might be as bright as Cersei when trying to connect the dots. The birth order for the first three heads were Visenya, Aegon, Rhaenys.... but Rhaegar started naming them in the reverse order. Rhaenys... Aegon...
So does this mean Rhaegar thought that his next child was going to be a daughter? Or was he planning on starting all over?
Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.
This started me thinking, as I walked around a lake..... Rhaegar and the woman he loved. What was Rhaegar doing at the Tower of Joy? What was his relationship with Lyanna? What was his relationship with Aemon? What did he read that changed the course of his life? Was he really trying to bring about the Prince that was promised? What was his deal with prophecy? Does TPTWP have anything to do with the dragon has three heads? Who will be the three heads? Well.... the first three heads were Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys.
And it hit me... Rhaegar's two kids with Elia were named Aegon and Rhaenys. Has anyone posted this before? I can't be the first to think Rhaegar was actually naming his kids after the Conqueror and his sister-wives.
Now maybe as wonderful as some people thought Rhaegar was, he might be as bright as Cersei when trying to connect the dots. The birth order for the first three heads were Visenya, Aegon, Rhaenys.... but Rhaegar started naming them in the reverse order. Rhaenys... Aegon...
So does this mean Rhaegar thought that his next child was going to be a daughter? Or was he planning on starting all over?
As an aside:.... Why isn't it the Prince who was promised?
Boaz
Happy Easter!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 6,550
@Ursa major First, it's because I don't pay attention to details. The second reason is that, like Tigger, I'm too busy bounding and bouncing to actually be correct all the time. Also, I want you all to get in the practice of reading carefully in order to help us all to read ASOIAF more carefully. Finally, it brings you here to post so I can see your lovable avatar.
Similar threads
-
-
-
-
<<Spoiler Alert Involving ADWD>> Three Heads of the Dragon Updated with ADWD- Started by Bazza
- Replies: 13