Foundation

[j d worthington]

There are numerous accounts of why Asimov largely eschewed aliens in his fiction, and (iirc) even Isaac attributed it to different things at times. One he mentioned was that he never felt his aliens were convincing characters, so he simply stopped using them fairly early in his career (within the first ten years or so, as I recall; until then one encountered them now and again -- see The Early Asimov, for instance). Then he broke away from that in a rather major way with The Gods Themselves, with its central section dealing exclusively with aliens, from their own point of view. He never again used them to such a notable extent (that I'm aware of), but he may have used them now and again.

However, for the majority of his work, aliens simply aren't there, as Asimov felt uncomfortable in using them, whether due to the arguments with Campbell (did information this come from Isaac? I don't recall it, but then I may have just forgotten), or to feeling he simply didn't do them to his own satisfaction, or for some other reason.... The bit in The End of Eternity sounds more like having a fictional reason (that is, a viable fictional explanation which works within one's created universe) to back up a decision made about one's writing than an actual reason per se....

 

[AE35Unit]

Isn't THE GODS THEMSELVES the one that is supposed to be read starting from chapter 6? I had a yellow VGSF copy of a book that had that in the introduction by Asimov,i'm sure it was that one but never read it.

 

[j d worthington]

It's been a while, and my copy is packed away in storage, but it was something like that. The chapters were deliberately out of sequence at the beginning, merging into the usual sequence as the novel progressed. This was done for a reason, but I won't get into that because it has to do with the major plotlines of the novel....

 

[Fried Egg]

You're supposed to read "The Gods Themselves" from chapter 6 onwards? That's news to me. I read it in order and didn't notice anything amiss.

J.D., if you don't mind, could you PM me the reason whey this was the case?

 

[AE35Unit]

Yea i'd like to know why too! Even tho I've not read the book by the time i get read it(i don't have a copy) I'll have forgotten the reason so it won't be a spoiler.

 

[j d worthington]

We may be talking at cross-purposes here, folks. The book, as published, is arranged with a later chapter first, then a visit to an earlier chapter, then a return to a later chapter, and so on, alternating, until the whole converges later on. So, Fried Egg, you may well have read the later chapter first, if you read it as arranged in the book; while if others have not read it (save, as I gather from the above statement, the introduction) then they may not be aware that it is arranged that way in published form. It's an odd arrangement, but I'd say in this case it's structurally necessary....

Rather than PM, I'll simply provide this link:

The Gods Themselves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and to add that to have presented the earlier events first would have got the book off to a very slow start (in reference to the main plot, anyway), while presenting it as flashback in the normal sense would have made things rather confusing and required a lot of repetition; whereas presented as it is, it allows the story to flow smoothly and provide a feeling of converging events leading toward a crisis....

 

[Shadowmancer]

Being new to the forums here I just had to post, and as soon as I saw Asimov I knew where my first post would be.

I first read the foundation series back in '99 in about 2 weeks on a vacation in P.E.I. I knew about his novels because my dad loves his work and I decided to borrow his hardcover of Prelude for the trip. I plowed through that like it was going out of style and I immediately scoured the island's used book stores with my aunt and uncle. I found all the books, and then some. I devoured them all These are some of the most amazing books I've ever read. The original 3 are fantastic and my all time favourite character is The Mule It's been about 7 years since I've read the books but I think I hear the call of Hari Seldon once more

As a side note to add to the current discussion here about "The Gods Themselves", I have a copy and never read it. Mainly due to the fact that it's a little old and I want to keep the binding intact. I do hope to find a better copy one day though.

 

[Omphalos]

Ive read a lot of Asimov, and have never had anything more than a luke-warm affection for his books. Here is a review of the Foundation books:

Omphalos' Book Reviews: Book Info

I guess Ill get to more of his books later, but I am not motivated to do it right now. He has some great ideas, but to me is a little bit boring in the exection. I liked the Gods Themselves, but was not wowed.

 

[AE35Unit]

Omphalos,i clicked on that link and got this error message
"The URL you submitted has disallowed characters" whatever that means

 

[manephelien]

Odd that, worked just fine for me. The URL has no problematic characters, but some browsers don't like apostrophes or other special characters in the link itself.

Does this link work? It's the same page as above.

 

[Omphalos]

Omphalos,i clicked on that link and got this error message
"The URL you submitted has disallowed characters" whatever that means

That happens some times. Thanks for telling me. I am getting ready to go live with some really big search feature changes, and that is one of the fixes that will be implemented.

 

[AE35Unit]

That happens some times. Thanks for telling me. I am getting ready to go live with some really big search feature changes, and that is one of the fixes that will be implemented.

Ah,the thing is clicked on tho link in the email and got the funny message,but when i clicked on the link in your post it worked!

 

[D_Davis]

So I finally started this...and I am having some major problems with it.

I am about 1/2 through Foundation.

I am not liking all that well.

I've thought about it all day, and I can't help but feel that it is a massive disappointment.

Am I that disconnected from the consensus?

I often feel disconnected from the general SF crowd, but this is crazy.


It's okay, but damn it if it ain't just a bunch of talking heads.

I am also finding some things about it quite strange.

I've noticed there is a conscious effort to avoid mentioning God. Rather than "My God!" used as slang, the characters say "My Space!" or "In the name of Space!" But then they also continue to use the word "hell" as slang. Why get rid of the concept of God used in slang if you are still going to use hell?

Also, where are the women? (have I just missed them?)

I can't tell if Asimov is mocking the audacity of the future scientists, or if he is praising them and deifying them. Am I supposed to think that the Foundation is a great achievement, or am I supposed to think it is just another misstep of humanity?

Given the total avoidance of any mention of religion (a concept that I find quite strange), I get the feeling that Asimov believes that a universe governed by logic and science is a much better one, but this scientific utopia sounds utterly drab and lifeless to me.

There is no humanity here, no heart, no soul. It's all bureaucracy, false pleasantries, official this-or-thats, and politics.

It's like King and court fantasy in space, and I am finding it rather dull and plodding. Perhaps it gets better, I'll just have to see.


**Slight Spoiler (but not really, because the narrative negates any real drama)**

Oh yeah, I have another big problem with Foundation.

In each of the first two parts, Asimov sets up an interesting dramatic situation, but then he totally negates the impact of the drama by having one of the characters use 'psychohistory', a scientific method of predicting the future based on large scale statistics, to say that they knew exactly what was going to happen.

So why have me read about the drama at all if there really was no drama to begin with?

In the first part we find that the scientists are being exiled to a planet at the edge of the empire - far away from anything. We are lead to believe that this is terrible. Oh my space, what is going to happen? Oh, don't worry, in the final few pages of this part the main character says that he predicted this was going to happen and it is all a part of his plan.

Drama negated, and thus totally pointless.

Yeah - I really don't like this.

This is a much bigger problem than the thematic ones. I don't like spending time reading something, getting invested in a dramatic situation, only to find that there wasn't a point to it all. If this happened once, okay, but it happens in each part I've read so far.

 

[D_Davis]

After reading about 20 more pages last night, I've given up. I cannot muster the enthusiasm to continue.

I guess Foundation is not for me. I've found no dramatic impetus in anything, zero character, the setting is so nondescript as to be totally generic - where are people? - and I am finding the ideas put forth quite dull. Everything feels so dead to me - there is so little emotion. It's all told through dialog, rarely is anything shown through narration or action. I'm just not feeling it.

 

[j d worthington]

POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING


To be fairly brief: yes, Seldon did "predict" these outcomes through his science of psychohistory... they are not, however, certain, only the most probable... and others knowing the likely outcome would have influenced events, possibly enough to alter the optimum he was seeking.

Keep in mind that he is attempting to set up a little oasis as the darkness falls on an empire which has lasted thousands of years, and he sees this as disastrous for the entire species without something of the sort set aside. Hence, also, the two foundations being set up, to address different aspects: the physical sciences and the mental sciences.

Of course, as things go, the more time passes, the more variables enter in, and the less accurate Seldon's prognostications become... especially with the entrance of a wild card like the Mule....

Incidentally, yes, Asimov was a humanist without any religious belief whatsoever; a scientist who saw the universe as governed by natural law without any sort of intelligence behind it. One of the reasons he chose to remove "God" as an expletive was the very plethora of gods there are, and the likely addition to this number in the amount of time before the era of the Empire and Foundation. Which "God"? In other words -- why would a huge empire such as this use an expletive which is largely associated with the deity of one religion or set of religions? Hell, however, is a concept which crosses many cultures, and so is less likely to be associated with a particular religion.

As for the feeling that "[t]here is no humanity here, no heart, no soul. It's all bureaucracy, false pleasantries, official this-or-thats, and politics", I'm afraid I can't quite agree. Yes, a great deal of the narrative (at least in the earlier portion of the trilogy) relies on dialectic between the opposing parties, much like many mysteries and thrillers of the period (and before) did. This does not, I would argue, prevent a sense of drama from developing, but it does develop differently. Also, this is less a personal vision than a great sweep of future history, where (again, in the earlier portions, though this changes drastically once the Mule enters the picture) individuals are of less importance than movements, trends, or historical forces. And, like the people of the Foundation, the reader is finally lulled into a sense of security concerning such crises, until they cease to worry overmuch about them... until the roof falls in.

There are other reasons for Asimov having taken the particular tack he did with this, and I think he achieved his aim rather well, despite the inevitable faults of a young writer. And, as I said, the dynamic of the story changes considerably as you go along -- again, with reason.

However, as you say, this may just be one not to your taste; it isn't to everyone's, nor even to a fair amount of the sf fans. Whether to go on or not is, of course, a decision only you can make; but personally I think I'd continue a bit more, at least until the Mule makes his appearance, and you may see not only the shift in narrative strategy but the reasons for each type a little better....

 

[D_Davis]

However, as you say, this may just be one not to your taste; it isn't to everyone's, nor even to a fair amount of the sf fans. Whether to go on or not is, of course, a decision only you can make; but personally I think I'd continue a bit more, at least until the Mule makes his appearance, and you may see not only the shift in narrative strategy but the reasons for each type a little better....

I've decided to put this in my "come back to at a later time" pile. Which, incidently, contains Darkness and The Light, another future history. I think that, perhaps, future history is not my thing. I require a more personal narrative it seems.

 

[Connavar]

Even if you hate the book, The Mule is still worth what he is about.

 

[manephelien]

That's why I actually prefer the later books, such as Prelude to Foundation, Forward the Foundation and Foundation and Earth. These tell the story from a participant's rather than a narrator's POV.

I enjoyed the other books too, but I wouldn't read them again just for the Mule.

 

[AE35Unit]

After reading about 20 more pages last night, I've given up. I cannot muster the enthusiasm to continue.

I guess Foundation is not for me. I've found no dramatic impetus in anything, zero character, the setting is so nondescript as to be totally generic - where are people? - and I am finding the ideas put forth quite dull. Everything feels so dead to me - there is so little emotion. It's all told through dialog, rarely is anything shown through narration or action. I'm just not feeling it.

I wouldn't feel bad D D,thats how i feel about it too. I have read the original 'trilogy' twice tho but when i tried to read Foundation's Edge i found it sapping my will to live. Dune was a bit like that too. Too much people talk,waffle and politics,no sense of wonder. And as for the avoiding the word God well a lot of authors have used alternatives like Oh space. Its not like Asimov was avoiding religion,i just thought that perhaps he felt that in the future religion may be renounced (oh if only!)

 

[Fried Egg]

I've decided to put this in my "come back to at a later time" pile. Which, incidently, contains Darkness and The Light, another future history. I think that, perhaps, future history is not my thing. I require a more personal narrative it seems.

I would steer clear of "Cities in Flight" by James Blish too then if you don't like this sort of thing...

I wouldn't feel bad D D,thats how i feel about it too. I have read the original 'trilogy' twice tho but when i tried to read Foundation's Edge i found it sapping my will to live. Dune was a bit like that too. Too much people talk,waffle and politics,no sense of wonder.

Actually, that's precisely what I liked about it. The dialog certainly isn't waffle, it's pivotal.

Thinking about it, I think that I actually generally prefer stories that are dialog rather than narrative driven. Just a personal thing I guess.