Tracing the Origins of Fantasy

[Alia]

I'm snatching this from another thread and think it's an interesting subject... and I hope Cyborg, Brys and Kelpie don't mind me doing this but I'm very interesting in tracing the origins of fantasy as far as literature goes... (I hope I have this in the right forum too)

When did Fantasy first start and how? Any one have any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brys
Fantasy, however, can be traced back thousands of years...

That sounds really interesting. was trying to trace the roots back and only got as far back as the 1300s. I could imagine Cleopatra reading hieroglyphic fantasy.~ Quote from Cyborg...

Wouldn't The Iliad and The Odyssey by Homer be considered fantasy written in 800 B. C. E?

 

[nixie]

Alia, not as early as your looking for but you may find it intresting,it covers Scandanvia,Ireland,England and Iceland,haven't really looked at it yet
www.medioevo.com/english/fantasy.htm

 

[Jay]

If we just wanted to make it a quick discussion we could say Gilgamesh.

I have been tracking that discussion and what it's lacking is anyone defining the term genre they are attempting to date.

In regards to publishing, Fantasy wasn't really considered a viable official publishing genre until the 60's and 70's. The notion that The Science Fiction genre followed the fantasy genre (as stated in that thread somewhere) is false. Science Fiction was a recognized genre decades before Fantasy.

If your trying to label any book that has fantastic elements in it as fantasy, then we can just say Gilgamesh a make a potentially long discussion short.

 

[Alia]

Thanks Nixie!

I'm wondering now... History buffs (which I am not), could runes be considered an early form of fantasy?

 

[Brys]

Wouldn't The Iliad and The Odyssey by Homer be considered fantasy written in 800 B. C. E?

Precisely my point. There is probably some mythology that dates back even further as well, but I can't think of any examples, except of course, as Ainulindale writes, Gilgamesh, and certainly not any which were written down, as Homer was one of the first to actually write down his tales (or histories, as he would have called them), but they were still intended largely to be read out loud.

Ainulindale, if we're going entirely by publishing recognition, then I'm sure you're right, but if we're going by what is now considered modern fantasy (even if it wasn't in its time) - where do we start? I think that it must have been around Lord Dunsany, but I'm pretty sure there were a few before him, but I can't remember who. However, this whole publishing recognition leads into another big debate - did the creation of an official publishing genre of fantasy aid or weaken it? Those who wrote fantasy before were able to do so quite happily, and they didn't suffer any stereotypes as a result. Or was it other factors, such as Tolkien's Lord of the Rings that is the main problem, not the fact that it became an official genre, if there even is a problem?

 

[nixie]

I would class Swift's Gullivers Travels as fantasy, wasn't that published in the 18th centuary?

 

[Alia]

The Epic of Gilgamesh is, perhaps, the oldest written story on Earth. It comes to us from Ancient Sumeria, and was originally written on 12 clay tablets in cunieform script. It is about the adventures of the historical King of Uruk (somewhere between 2750 and 2500 BCE).

The translator chose to eliminate Tablet XII for personal reasons, with support from many literary, archaeological, and linguistic experts because it appears to be more of a sequel to the first 11 tablets, containing a story about Enkidu volunteering to retrieve some objects that Gilgamesh dropped into the Netherworld.

This translation is based on the "standard" Akkadian "edition", but is filled in with excerpts from the Old Babylonian where necessary.

I have proofread this set of documents extensively, but should you find any typographical errors in it, please let me know.

~ Google search

Sumeria
[font=verdana, geneva, helvetica][size=-1]
Definition: Ancient civilization thought to be one of the first ever. It is thought that the use of the wheel started there. The Sumerian people were certainly the first to gather in city-states and develop a system of writing, as well as many other "firsts." Based on the lowlands around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, the Sumerians were vulnerable to attack. They were eventually conquered by the Akkadians. Major city-states included Ur, Uruk, Kish, and Lagash.[/size][/font]

Oldest form of writing holds a lot of weight...

 

[cyborg_cinema]

When did Fantasy first start and how? Any one have any ideas?

...songs/poetry could be included, since they were used to tell stories. For example, Sir Orfeo from the 1300s.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, it depends on whether you are talking about fantasy that was originally written to be fantastical, or stories that are only fantasy in retrospect (that is they were meant to be realistic at the time, but we no longer believe in the same things that the people who wrote them did), or stories that, whatever they may have been meant to be in the first place, have had a direct influence on fantasy as we know it today.

As for the previous discussion that this one comes out of, I was trying to stay away from the whole question of how you define "genre fantasy" because some of us had pretty much thrashed that out in another thread not so long ago, and I wasn't particularly interested in going over the same arguments.

 

[Alia]

stories that are only fantasy in retrospect (that is they were meant to be realistic at the time, but we no longer believe in the same things that the people who wrote them did),

That's what I'm wondering... could such situations be viewed as fantasy even if they weren't intended on being fantasy?

or stories that, whatever they may have been meant to be in the first place, have had a direct influence on fantasy as we know it today.

This is what I actually meant, Kelpie when I first asked the original question... the first written form of fantasy literature. And I'm not talking about when it became a genre and respected by the public. But the earliest form of written fantasy stories.

 

[Jay]

Alia by the defintion you set it has to be Gilgamesh - and I said, thus making the discussion nice and brief.

 

[Alia]

Well Ainulindale... that's what I'm incline to think too... I hadn't heard of Gligamesh to be honest with you.

Now I'm curious about this...

Quote:
stories that are only fantasy in retrospect (that is they were meant to be realistic at the time, but we no longer believe in the same things that the people who wrote them did),

That's what I'm wondering... could such situations be viewed as fantasy even if they weren't intended on being fantasy?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Then by that definition I would have to agree with Ainulindale; it has to be Gilgamesh, in terms of sheer seniority.

In terms of influence on other stories that came after, then one might possibly give another answer.

That's what I'm wondering... could such situations be viewed as fantasy even if they weren't intended on being fantasy?

Well, that's where it gets sticky, because sometimes there is no way of knowing whether that particular writer believed in the things that he or she was writing about. For instance, we can be pretty sure that when Shakespeare wrote about witches he, like the rest of his contemporaries, believed in the existence of witches. But when we get into something like A Midsummer Night's Dream or The Tempest he may have included some elements that he himself considered fantastical.

 

[cyborg_cinema]

Well, it depends on whether you are talking about fantasy that was originally written to be fantastical, or stories that are only fantasy in retrospect...

Depending on how far back you would be interested in going, it might be interesting to loosen up the shoestrings a little bit.

 

[cyborg_cinema]

I found a list of ingredients...

"Quests, dreams, visions, prophesies, journeys...
Knights, squires, peasants...
Wizards, mages, sorcerers, and witches...
Kings, queens, princes...
Hermits, damsels in distress, gatekeepers, crones, fairies, elves...
Dragons, princesses...
Magic swords, shields, armor, spells, books...
The Middle Ages, Middle Earth..."

Fantasy 101

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The problem with that list is that a) it leaves out too much, and b) it includes too much.

 

[Brys]

A lot of what we now consider fantasy was originally meant to be history. However, we have to remember that these were histories intended to keep the listeners enthralled at all times, so many elements of the fantastic were introduced on purpose, rather than for historical accuracy. However, much of those elements were believed to have been real, so it could easily be historical fiction, for example, Homer's Iliad and Oddessy introduced the Gods regularly, but they were believed to have been real, and so it is hard to describe as fantasy.

Shakespeare, probably, is one of those who intentionally wrote fiction which was fantastic in nature - while others embellished history, Shakespeare in some of his plays as mentioned earlier, were writing them purely for entertainment, and so, are probably the earliest we can trace back intentional fantasy.

 

[cyborg_cinema]

The problem with that list is that a) it leaves out too much, and b) it includes too much.

...I see where you're coming from. And it sounds like a list of keywords for the middle ages.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

No, I wouldn't say that Shakespeare was the earliest, or even close to the earliest; I used him merely as an example of how difficult it can be, looking backward, to decide whether an author was writing about things he or she personally believed to be entirely possible.

Difficult, but not always impossible. Take, for instance, those Irish monks who wrote down (and probably embellished) much earlier tales of Irish gods and heroes. Their interest in preserving those stories could have had nothing to do with a belief in their veracity, but everything to do with some literary or cultural merit they saw in those tales.

With Classical authors it becomes more difficult, since their religions didn't automatically rule out a belief in other peoples gods and mythologies.

And where do you place something like Aesop's Fables? Do the talking animals make those stories fantasy, since surely they were never intended to be taken for real animals? Or are they not fantasy, because the animals are just stand-ins for human beings?

*****

Cyborg, yes, that would be my objection. According to that list anything written about the Middle Ages would have to be fantasy, and anything written in any other setting couldn't be.

 

[Alia]

A lot of what we now consider fantasy was originally meant to be history. However, we have to remember that these were histories intended to keep the listeners enthralled at all times, so many elements of the fantastic were introduced on purpose, rather than for historical accuracy. However, much of those elements were believed to have been real, so it could easily be historical fiction, for example, Homer's Iliad and Oddessy introduced the Gods regularly, but they were believed to have been real, and so it is hard to describe as fantasy.

When dealing with Homer or any other writer of mythology, be it Egyptian, Greek, Chinese, Roman or Japanese there is a sense of fantasy mixed in with reality as in modern day fantasy is too. A well writen story provides facts that make a fantasy believeable to its audience... Homer I believe did this. Even though one might say he is a historical fiction writer, it's still a fantasy.

In Wikipedia it says this about Mythology:

What is mythology?
Myths are generally narratives based on tradition and legend designed to explain the universal and local beginnings ("creation myths" and "founding myths"), natural phenomena, inexplicable cultural conventions, and anything else for which no simple explanation presents itself. Not all myths need have this explicatory purpose, however. Likewise, most myths involve a supernatural force or deity, but many simple legends and narratives passed down orally from generation to generation have mythic content. The Brothers Grimm demonstrated that there is mythic content embedded even in the least promising fairy tales.
A fairy tale itself is not a myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology#What_is_mythology.3F

With Classical authors it becomes more difficult, since their religions didn't automatically rule out a belief in other peoples gods and mythologies.

Religion, gods, myths and legends I believe, all play an important part on what people wrote about. Just because Homer (or any other myth writer or story teller) used the gods of this times doesn't mean that his stories aren't fantasy. Mythology is one of the earliest forms of fantasy stories we might know of.

Though the genre in its modern sense is less than two centuries old, its antecedents have a long and distinguished history. The following lists include works which contain significant elements that might be considered "fantasy" by today's standards, or which modern fantasy authors have drawn upon extensively for inspiration in their own works. The categorization of many of these earlier works as "fantasy" is typically only used within the context of the fantasy genre itself and discussions of its origins; only a small minority would consider them "fantasy" outside of this context.
This relatively obscure custom of placing mythology in the context of the fantasy genre is especially useful to those that scrutinize the fantasy genre as others would mainstream fiction. This gives fantasy a rich history of inspirations for critics to disect and apply to the modern genre. The fantasy genre is often examined as the modern counterpart to mythology. Whether one of these practices inspired the other, and which inspired which, is hotly debated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy

And where do you place something like Aesop's Fables? Do the talking animals make those stories fantasy, since surely they were never intended to be taken for real animals? Or are they not fantasy, because the animals are just stand-ins for human beings?

I'm incline to say yes, if it's a fable it's a fantasy.