House of the Dragon: 2.08 - The Queen Who Ever Was

[ctg]

As Aemond becomes more volatile, Larys plots an escape, while Rhaenyra looks to press her advantage.

IMDB rating: 6.8 Runtime: 57 minutes

 

[ctg]

I have a migraine, so I haven't viewed the episode yet, and yet looking at the ratings, something is wrong because surely HBO doesn't do bad episodes for the flagship series. I wonder what it'll be. But for now that has to stay until the pain is gone.

Feel free to put in your comments.

 

[Dave]

I've just watched it. No sitting around tables this week, but no dragon fights either. It is all long camera shots of armies marching, fleets sailing, the good, the bad and the hideously disfigured, roaming the halls, sulking or looking wistfully from clifftops. It's about swearing their allegiances, changing their positions, or else conceding to the inevitability of it all. There is a lot of travelling about by people without them meeting any of these humongous armies on the move, but no battles actually took place, instead it's rather just a very long build up to next season, which is a whole year away (and I have trouble remembering last season at all.)

While I do think that this anti-climax was most disappointing, that may not fully explain the low rating. Like the other low rating this season, there was another moment that the same people probably took issue with. During the light relief section, and in order to hire the ships of Essos, Tyland Lannister must first mud wrestle with the female admiral, Lohar (yes, I know!) Later over dinner, and the singing of a sea shanty, he his told by Lohar that she wants him to impregnate all of her many wives.

The best part was probably Daemon's vision of his own fate. He sees dead dragons, White Walkers, that Winter is coming, the Targaryen's demise, a clutch of dragon eggs, and then a naked figure surrounded by three hatchlings. It's like Game of Thrones in sixty seconds!

 

[SilentRoamer]

While I do think that this anti-climax was most disappointing, that may not fully explain the low rating. Like the other low rating this season, there was another moment that the same people probably took issue with. During the light relief section, and in order to hire the ships of Essos, Tyland Lannister must first mud wrestle with the female admiral, Lohar (yes, I know!) Later over dinner, and the singing of a sea shanty, he his told by Lohar that she wants him to impregnate all of her many wives.

I've seen this view here and elsewhere and I'm just not sure that it holds much weight. GoT has always been expressly sexual, there were all sorts of relationships in all seasons of GoT and I think it safe to assume that viewers of HotD are fans of GoT. I can't see a world where fans of the series would be surprised by this episode, and if you are the sort to be offended by a lesbian kiss then I can't see you being a fan of the show. Although no doubt - those elements exist, I just don't think they are sizeable enough to make a dent on the reviews (of course I could be wrong).

Personally I found the "impregnate my wives" scene to be pretty funny, with the build-up being one of the best scenes of this episode. I think this was definitely one of the weakest episodes of the series, and the show overall. This felt like a filler episode, or an Episode 8 of a 10 Episode series, not like a season finale (the episode where the king was burned was a much stronger episode.

It's not necessarily that there wasn't enough action, sometimes I think the politicking is just as good to watch, it's just nothing seemed to happen of consequence.

Also - can someone, anyone, literally anyone, push Olf in the face please. Feet up at the Queens table! Off with his head!

 

[Dave]

I've seen this view here and elsewhere and I'm just not sure that it holds much weight.

I've only seen it discussed here, but as you quoted the post by @Judderman in Smallfolk about "review bombing" you must know that there is such a thing, even if it is difficult to understand the reasoning behind it. We don't discuss politics here, but I find the reasoning behind quite a lot of what goes on inexplicable.

 

[ctg]

I checked a couple of low rating reviews, and they mostly talked about HBO effing up the ending by leaving it on a cliffhanger and introducing stuff in the last four minutes. I didn't want to read into specifics, but I get the gist as we've seen it happening with their other SF product WestWorld. And if I'm frank, the latter part of the GoT has similar problems.

The main thing is that the ending is as important as the beginning. It's not just series ending and the final, because it applies to every season, with the season being the narrative arc. Some people complained in those posts that GRRM doesn't write in the series any more. Which is not true, as he shares the credit with other writers. He writes for the series and consult the rest, and he does it professionally as he has countless TV writing credits from writing other series. So he understands the reason for the beginning and the end, even if he writes excessively in between those two things.

If I'm honest, in this season, people cheered on action and got bored on non-action dialogue. And last episode 25 minute, mostly no dialogue ending was perfect. So let's see if there are such brilliant moments in this one...

Myrish Pirate Lords. I loved that they tried to make Tyland Lannister to pay a steep price "per men" to break the blockade. They even mentioned that their stables are carved in the mountain of gold. And yet, Tyland had to decline because he wasn't going to produce the coin to pay off the pirates.

So the next suggestion was StepStones. After all pirates always need bases and having one with major ship lanes near it would suit them perfectly. Again Tylant declined. So their last suggestion was for Tylant to produce "a fleet of warships," and let the pirate admiral to command it, but that wasn't so simple as Lohar wouldn't sail, before Tylant won her over a task. Man, if I were in his shoes, I'd just give up and go back at King's Landing to sulk, because we all know that with pirates in the control, it's all going to end tits up.

Just like Aegon was feeling when Laris marched at the end of his bed and asked him to flee. He claimed that the Regent was going to kill him as soon as he would return from his murder rampant at Black's territory. Only Aegon wasn't seeing it, as he could hardly walk, not talking doing other activities because "the flames burst" his willy. "I cannot even piss without it running down my legs," the king stated.

All he wanted to was to lay in the bed and enjoy the Milk of Poppy, and seeing that all the fun activities were down, maybe death in his brother hands wouldn't be so bad. Yet, Larys tried to make him flee to Essos with Iron Bank coin that he'd "siphoned from King's Landing." He even claimed that Aegon would be redeemed with he would come back as "Aegon the Rebuilder," along with other such titles.

It's just when the Regent returned, he didn't go straight to murder business, instead he told no to pirate plans and then went to demand that Haelena would ride her ancient lizard to battle. She refused to burn anyone. As the Green Queen saw that murder streak and unending rage hiding in her oldest boy, she went to ask Grand Maester to help her to escape. Her alone.

Which is kind of funny because soon after Ser Gwayne confronted Ser Cole sniffing on Queen's hankerchief in the middle of the forest. The Lord Commander confessed on shagging the former queen, and then told that she'd saved his life twice, and because of it, he could not get rid of her from her thoughts, even though he confessed that ladies in the past had got him all in a bad way. Gwayne wanted to send him to the Wall, but couldn't because he needed Ser Cole to lead their men.

That itself could be dangerous, because Ser Cole was living the memories and having PTSD from the battle. "Dragons dance and men under their feet are nothing but dust." And then he stated, "We are marching towards our annihilation." All that flame and bravado about showing the Blacks that he could best them had gone and despotism had taken the place. So, again, he would do better at the Wall then leading the men to their doom, as that is the only place where they go with him in charge.

The only success going in their way was Tylant winning the mud wrestling competion by punching the Admiral in his desperation. That only provoked her to invite Tylant to a dinner, where she stated that she was so impressed that she would sail with her captains in Tylant's fleet, if he shagged her wives.

Oh man, even though I loved seeing Ulf boldly sitting in the Queen's Chair, with feet on table, I hated that he compared himself as equal to Prince Jace. Yes, the dragon had chosen him, but the Queen had put him in the task of being a fighting force, rather than living a life of luxury. He clearly hasn't understood that the Black Queen was going to make him a knight. And that would mean putting his life on the line at the back of dragon that might change her mind.

The Black Queen told as much to Corlys as they met at the front of the new christened flagship, "The Queen who Never Was." An ominous name that also has other symbolic meanings. Corlys claimed that he was ready to sail and yet, he asked the queen to act quickly because the green could try to claim their own dragon using the same princible. All he asked was for the Regent to go down. Six dragons vs one would do it, but she would have to act quickly.

When she returned at DragonStone, Rhae gathered together all the riders and told them she would give them a knighthood, and with that she expected manners. Ulf claimed to do that if she did it in the minute. That moment never arrived as Castellan from Harrenhall had sent a raven to the Black Queen, telling that Daemon had raised an army and he was acting treacherously.

It was intriguing to see Harrenhall producing armaments for Cruel Prince's new army. Ser Alfred Broom claimed it was "very big." Daemon told him that he aimed to march it at King's Landing very soon. And yet, Ser Alfred begged prince to listen him, because he wanted Daemon to claim his place as a king. Not a puppy by queen's side.

At the evening Daemon woke on Alys sitting on his bed and he asked, "Do you never sleep, witch?" without understanding anything. So Alys told him that she'd be going to "godswood." The Cruel Prince followed her to the living heartwood. She lead him to the tree and asked, "Do you wish to learn what has been given to you?" Still, Daemon didn't understand what was happening, but he didn't put up a fight when Alys grabbed his hand and placed it against the trunk.

Blood flowed through his finger as he accessed the three eyed raven and saw the White Walkers with their King on the otherside of the wall. The gods made him to see the birth of the Dragon Queen and all that was coming the GoT timeline ... if he would help Rhae to sit on the Iron Throne. All that destiny through his actions. He just could never be a king.

I love this shot. The Black Queen had an epic arrival at Harrenhall. She left Addam on holding pattern at sky while she went to see the Castellan waiting the step. All while the Rivermen at the camp was scared of Syrax announcing their arrival. She was again in very talkative mood, probably telling Daemon's boy that they all had riders now.

As the Black Queen marched in the Main Hall, she was faced with thousands of men-at-arms and none of them showed respect by bending the knee. So when Daemon arrived to his Queen, Rhae asked, "Who are you sworn to?" The Cruel Prince didn't answer in comman, knowing that all men were listening, as he stated in High Valyrian that he'd seen the future, and that Winter is Coming.

Then...

Another magnificent shot. This could be a painting at National Gallery as you get so many thoughts about this picture. But I applaud for Daemon to finally admitting that he c*cked up. The whole season he has avoided doing this, even though after the night ride to Harrenhall, he should've done this. Yet, the gods made him to stay and men suffered because of it.

Seeing the men following the act, Rhae grabbed Daemon's hand and told him the "If you leave me again," line in High Valyrian.

Daemon stood up and looked her in the eye, while he replied, "I could not. I tried, My Queen." And so all was forgiven. For a moment.

The Castellan was so pleased seeing such thing happening in his halls. He was actually chuffed, clapping his hands with a big smile on his face.

It wasn't the only confession that was made as Corly's First Mate told the father what it really feels like to be a b*stard son. The men could not say anything back in his defence. He got his will done, but not the respect of a man he'd abandoned to his own devices.

But that wasn't the last one either, as back in the DragonStone White Worm told the Black Queen that gods favour her. She told her back that she acknowledges it, but the price for it is paid in innocent blood. Then late at night the Green Queen arrived to tell her that she always did what was expected of her and that now she was lost. Unable to determine on what to do, because she was no longer holding the reins. All she wanted was wash her hands from the empire business and be a commoner. The Black Queen told her off. That their moment had passed and there was no other way but to wage the flames of war.

Alicient tried to beg mercy for her son, but Rhae was vehemant and said that the only way to pay the price for her freedom was "A son for a son."

The whole scene is masterfully done and you can feel the pain in both mothers. What must be done, must be done. Tears or grinding teeth. No other choice. Three days time she would have to deliver the keep and her son.

It was epic to see Rivermen and Northerners gathering together while Black Riders don their kit and got ready. Only the boy king was nowhere to be found as he'd left with Larys.

--
8/10 good ending

 

[SilentRoamer]

I've only seen it discussed here, but as you quoted the post by @Judderman in Smallfolk about "review bombing" you must know that there is such a thing, even if it is difficult to understand the reasoning behind it. We don't discuss politics here, but I find the reasoning behind quite a lot of what goes on inexplicable.

Of course, I'm not review bombing exists, I just think often nowadays there can be a jump to assume review bombing when a poorer episode can also be the explanation.

Then again it's crazy to me someone could feel motivated enough to write a review about a TV show because scenes offend them (no matter what offense).

Anyway I'll leave it there so not to wander into political discussion

 

[Judderman]

I believe the review bombing explanation for the earlier episode, but in this finale episode case it simply wasn’t very good.
I really don’t like the trope of everything building towards a final episode battle any more. But perhaps worse is building up and then just bumping it to next season. Like the writers realized the show had dragged so tried to generate interest for next season. But for certain viewing figures will be lower. The show definitely has a quality feel but the drama doesn’t quite hit the spot this season. Although there has been some strong episodes for sure. I think perhaps 4 out of 8 have not been all that enjoyable.
But for sure I will watch next season.

 

[ctg]

I really don’t like the trope of everything building towards a final episode battle any more. But perhaps worse is building up and then just bumping it to next season.

I'm not expecting season final battles and in this one they rather build up the characters and reversed roles than doing another costly battle. To be honest, the assault on that coastal keep was the only one we saw in this season. All the others were cut off from the viewers and we only saw the end results.

But for sure I will watch next season.

Is it going to be another two years of waiting?

 

[ctg]

HBO’s House of the Dragon is once again returning to roost as “The Queen Who Ever Was” brings this season to a close. Some were disappointed that House of the Dragon season 2 swapped battles for family feuds, while others have dubbed it the season of MIA characters after George R.R. Martin himself referred to Blood and Cheese’s Maelor the Missing.

House of the Dragon is more a loose adaptation of Martin’s Fire & Blood, which works thanks to the book’s unreliable narrators. We’ve seen this through the likes of Aemond (Ewan Mitchell) burning Aegon (Tom Glynn-Carrey) at the Battle of Rook’s Rest, Alicent’s (Olivia Cooke) game-changing finale deal, and the whole “Blood and Cheese” debacle. Now, episode 8 has backed up those theories that the beloved Nettles will be sitting this one out.

While Nettles is a relatively minor player in the Dance of the Dragons, she’s an important part of Daemon Targaryen’s arc, rides the dragon known as Sheepstealer, and has her fate left up in the air. We were on the money with the idea that Rhaena Targaryen (Phoebe Campbell) would take on Nettles’ story, which has already caused complaints among fans for amalgamating two potentially powerhouse female POC characters. Although the book Velaryons are Caucasian, the show has switched this up, while Nettles is described as a “skinny, brown-skinned girl,” who was “foul-mouthed, filthy, and fearless.”

The finale’s closing sizzle reel saw Rhaena’s trip to the Vale finally pay off as she came across the riderless Sheepstealer and, in one fell swoop, seemingly nixed our hopes of Nettles. We attended House of the Dragon season 2’s post-finale press conference, where showrunner Ryan Condal suggested that even if Rhaena becomes a live-action substitute for Nettles, the story might not play out how you’d expect. Despite it looking like Rhaena is destined to claim Sheepstealer, Condal explained, “Given where we are in the storytelling, I think that’s a, ‘Please stay tuned and keep watching the story.’”

House of the Dragon Showrunner Addresses What's Going on With Nettles and Rhaena

Is Rhaena taking the place of beloved Fire & Blood character Nettles on House of the Dragon? Here's what showrunner Ryan Condal says.

www.denofgeek.com

 

[Judderman]

Some GoT episodes have some wit and dry humour in (written by George). The humour in this one was more slapstick.

 

[Judderman]

Is it going to be another two years of waiting?

Likely! To be fair they are major productions.

 

[ctg]

Likely! To be fair they are major productions.

Bloody hell. We are going to forget everything again and then it's going be another weird to write about. That's why I keep using the nicknames and not the character ones. They are easier to remember and they reflect the character type.

 

[ctg]

A question, did it annoy anyone that Daemon spent the whole season in Harrenhall at angry, stupid bender? I honestly believed he was going to go on at a murder streak in his angry, stubborn way. But no, he stayed stuck on the haunted bed the whole season. It was as if the gods had willed it and there was little else he could do.

That leads to another question, is the gods going to be affecting him in the last two seasons (4 season arc)?

 

[ctg]

So here's the reason for only 8 episodes and 'cocked up ending.' The writer strikes and HBO exec decisions. Did they not know what happened with Disney exec decisions? Don't they watch their rivals effing things up?

House of the Dragon season 2 may not have deployed the sheer number of time jumps that the first season did, but that doesn’t mean that its pacing was perfect. In fact, one of the biggest complaints about this season is that the pacing felt off, especially with regards to the season finale. Many thought that episode 8 “The Queen Who Ever Was” was anticlimactic compared to the amount of tension that had been building toward the war all season, and it now seems like there is more than one reason for it.

We already knew that the Writer’s Guild of America (WGA) strike in 2023 impacted the season. Even though House of the Dragon is filmed primarily in the U.K. and Europe, showrunner Ryan Condal and his lead writing partner Sara Hess are members of the WGA, which meant that they couldn’t rewrite any scenes during filming even though they were still allowed to be on set as producers. The only reason that the show was even able to finish filming at all is because the actors weren’t part of the American-based actors union SAG-AFTRA, who went on their own strike soon after.

The show could only film the prepared scripts as-written for any filming that occurred during the WGA strike. Usually productions are able to change scenes as needed if they realize that something isn’t working as it’s translated from the page to filming in person. House of the Dragon season 2 wasn’t able to do that.

On top of that, there’s been some speculation by westeros.org’s Elio Garcia that HBO’s decision to cut season 2 from 10 episodes to eight only a month or so before filming also had an impact.

The Possible Reason House of the Dragon Season 2 Ended So Abruptly

No, you're not imagining the uneven pacing of House of the Dragon season 2 and there was a likely reason for it.

www.denofgeek.com

 

[Judderman]

The reign of King Viserys and the jockeying for position tied things together in season 1. Season 2 almost seemed to be strung out to later justify 4 seasons are needed to tell the whole story. Like CTG mentions with Daemon not achieving a lot, though at least an army gathered to him.
I suppose Aegon will return in season 4.
As said in one of those articles with two seasons remaining perhaps the story will have to speed up a tad to fit it all in.

 

[Steve Harrison]

I enjoyed this season much more than the first, possibly because I had low expectations, and I thought the ending was fine in the context of four seasons. Looking forward to season 3.

 

[ctg]

I suppose Aegon will return in season 4.

Well, that is going to be one very long trip he's taking. I cannot imagine them cutting him off next season, even if it would make sense, and give room for the other cast to breath.

 

[SilentRoamer]

The reign of King Viserys and the jockeying for position tied things together in season 1. Season 2 almost seemed to be strung out to later justify 4 seasons are needed to tell the whole story. Like CTG mentions with Daemon not achieving a lot, though at least an army gathered to him.
I suppose Aegon will return in season 4.
As said in one of those articles with two seasons remaining perhaps the story will have to speed up a tad to fit it all in.

Yeah, it just feels to me like a lot more happened in Season 1, weirdly it seemed both broader and deeper.

Maybe I just miss Viserys and the good old days - much like the Common Man in Westeros! In truth I think some of the younger versions of the cast did amazing jobs, the young Queen was great and Viserys was phenomenal.

 

[Judderman]

The cast and production is great. Story in season 2 is just so-so. Season 1 was brilliant.