Georgian Fantasy Opening -- Take Two

[Pyan]

Well, I can only say I liked it very much, and would definitely buy it on the basis of the extract. It reminded me a little of a Regency Rivers of London, which is no bad thing, IMHO.

 

[Swank]

I like the writing and the slippery POV. The open secret of the druids reminds me of the film Orlando where the MC's impossible age is politely ignored.

The race gender offence taken seems anachronistic. The Vestal ought to be more incensed with the disbelief or similar than incredibly normal racial commentary.


I found the use of drones and wasps distracting. Drones are male bees, wasps are all wasps. They don't fit together obviously. Plus, drone is now commonly something else.

 

[The Judge]

Thanks!

The race gender offence taken seems anachronistic.

Doubtless my fault for not making it clearer, but she's not taking offence at the race/gender comments because they're talking race/gender as such, but because she's taking all that's said as personal insults, in the same way as if someone said her hands were too large or her ankles too thick (not that they can see her ankles). She's not being given the respect she's due.

The Vestal ought to be more incensed with the disbelief or similar than incredibly normal racial commentary.

I don't imagine a Catholic priest or Methodist minister would be incensed that others didn't share their particular version of Christianity, and there's even less reason for the Vestals to be annoyed, since they're only presenting as kind-of-Anglican-with-quirks. She is offended at the rector's comments, though, and the idea of the Sacred Grove being destroyed, and perhaps I ought to make more of that.

I found the use of drones and wasps distracting. Drones are male bees, wasps are all wasps. They don't fit together obviously.

Yes, I know, but the insect imagery fitted with her character and thoughts, and I don't suppose many people would take issue at the men and women being described as different insects, nor at Wilson being described as a hornet, another insect altogether. "Drone" also fits as a dull noise, ie the men's boring voices.

Plus, drone is now commonly something else.

Frankly, if someone voluntarily reading a fantasy book based in Georgian England first thinks of a radio-controlled aircraft when reading "drone" then I might as well give up now! At times I'll necessarily be using words that reflect the time and place which may not always accord with how they're used today, so I'll just have to hope for readers who either understand the period or are willing to discover new meanings!

 

[Swank]

Thanks!


Doubtless my fault for not making it clearer, but she's not taking offence at the race/gender comments because they're talking race/gender as such, but because she's taking all that's said as personal insults, in the same way as if someone said her hands were too large or her ankles too thick (not that they can see her ankles). She's not being given the respect she's due.


I don't imagine a Catholic priest or Methodist minister would be incensed that others didn't share their particular version of Christianity, and there's even less reason for the Vestals to be annoyed, since they're only presenting as kind-of-Anglican-with-quirks. She is offended at the rector's comments, though, and the idea of the Sacred Grove being destroyed, and perhaps I ought to make more of that.


Yes, I know, but the insect imagery fitted with her character and thoughts, and I don't suppose many people would take issue at the men and women being described as different insects, nor at Wilson being described as a hornet, another insect altogether. "Drone" also fits as a dull noise, ie the men's boring voices.


Frankly, if someone voluntarily reading a fantasy book based in Georgian England first thinks of a radio-controlled aircraft when reading "drone" then I might as well give up now! At times I'll necessarily be using words that reflect the time and place which may not always accord with how they're used today, so I'll just have to hope for readers who either understand the period or are willing to discover new meanings!

You use "drone"for both an animal and noise, which causes the reader to have to do a quick thesaurus in their minds which puts them on other tracks. In a given passage, I would use one or the other rather than both to keep the animal alusion clear.

As for the race gender stuff, I get what is happening. It isn't so much a story problem as much a point which takes you out of the story because the narrative focus seems to have a concern that is anachronistic. It makes the action not seem "period". Same as if the characters had a preoccupation with "world peace" or "workers' rights".


My suggestion would be to make the insults a little less on the nose "where's the gentleman who escorted her?", or make the commentary less insulting and more objectifying her as an exotic sight, or simply uncouth. Whatever you decide, it currently is a distraction through almost the entire passage. I'm not some anti-woke moron, and I doubt Toby is either - and we both noticed this independently.

The religion thing I mentioned was not to suggest the Catholics were intolerant, but that the Vestal feels a certain lack of respect due to her awareness of her power and her audience's obliviousness to her greatness. There is a little of that in the passage already, and it would be another avenue to expand on if you are looking to dilute the "issue".

 

[Toby Frost]

It makes the action not seem "period". Same as if the characters had a preoccupation with "world peace" or "workers' rights".

Good point: I'm not sure if feminism - as in a general concern for women - would have existed back then. There might be concern for "sisters of the order" or something like that, but given the general contempt for humanity of the time (I expect "humanity" barely existed as an idea, too) I think it would be very limited.

I've got this feeling that every period in history generates its own myths/stereotypes for fantasy writers, and feminism isn't quite in it yet (although Mary Wollstonecraft must be around back then). Perhaps the rights of women would be lumped in with "weird stuff religious dissenters/the French do" in the popular imagination, or something like that.

Slightly random thought: I was reading some Raymond Chandler recently and it struck me that although Marlowe never says anything political and shows no aim of changing the system, he's fundamentally concerned with "the little guy" and "giving people a break". Maybe it's just that, in a world run by A-holes, not being an A-hole looks like a daring act.

I'm not some anti-woke moron, and I doubt Toby is either

[Shakes fist at the youth of today and their terrible youth things!]

 

[The Judge]

... feminism isn't quite in it yet (although Mary Wollstonecraft must be around back then). Perhaps the rights of women would be lumped in with "weird stuff religious dissenters/the French do" in the popular imagination, or something like that.

Thoughts on the Education of Daughters is published in 1787, with A Vindication of the Rights of Women following in 1892, so though "feminism" isn't a word in the C18th, there are certainly people who are actively considering the role of women in sociery and their rights at this time, even if nothing seems to happen for some considerable time.

And, of course, I'm writing alt-history fantasy, so who knows what my Vestals may have been stirring up...

 

[HareBrain]

who knows what my Vestals may have been stirring up...

A bit OT, but the (unintended, I hope) image that jumped to my mind here was a cauldron of Vesta chow mein. On a bit of a nostalgia trip, I then googled the product, assuming it had disappeared with the 1970s -- only to find they're still selling it!

 

[Pyan]

A bit OT, but the (unintended, I hope) image that jumped to my mind here was a cauldron of Vesta chow mein. On a bit of a nostalgia trip, I then googled the product, assuming it had disappeared with the 1970s -- only to find they're still selling it!

I still remember the excitement of watching the rock-hard little strips of dried flat noodles expand hugely and fill with tasty crunchyness when dropped into hot fat.

 

[HareBrain]

I still remember the excitement of watching the rock-hard little strips of dried flat noodles expand hugely and fill with tasty crunchyness when dropped into hot fat.

I know! The magical entrancement was like finding Father Christmas had been. Thinking about it, it was probably a (vain) attempt to recapture that sense of awe and wonder that got me into fantasy.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I just want to say I've only just read this and thought it was brilliant.

I saw it come up before but I wasn't in mind to read anything long, so my apologies for being late.

As it stands I found it technically brilliant, there was a wonderful sense of voice, and the details were wonderful.

Sure, I was a little confused about POV use a couple of sentences into the second section but it all became very clear very quickly. I take it as a mark of good writing that the reader needs to take a moment to orientate with a strong new novel, whether by Margaret Atwood, Mary Renault, or even John Le Carre.

Personally I would suggest the most criticisms so far are due to personal taste, and from people who might not normally read such a novel, so to not take them too much to heart. Personally I think you have something precious here and would encourage you to continue as is.

Of course, this is just my own personal opinion, but I think you've captured an intriguing mood very well and I would think there would be real professional interest for something like this.

 

[Bowler1]

You picked an interesting section to post and are playing with - it's unusual.

The POV switches are demanding, short sections from one POV to another, which are pushing the reader to keep up. There is enough of what is happening here to have captured my interest and I think it's very well written, but hard to catch up with initally. To be fair the section does work and gets a lot of information out quickly, while not feeling like it does on a first read through. I think the issue I have most of all is not connecting to any individual character, and if there is a main character for the book in this section possibly highlighting this character a little more in this section, or my view at least. The risk of POV shifts is losing character(s) focus, but your experiment is still an interesting read showing very good skill.

Anyway I'm stuck sitting on the fence with this section, so much so I have splinters to show for my indecision. Technically I like it, it does draw me in but you have not hooked me in because I failed to connect with the inner thoughts of any single character. No doubt resolved as you move on with the storyline. Very interesting and thanks for sharing - you have set yourself a challenge with your choice of style here and good luck with it.

 

[THX1138]

Your story is not really my style, so maybe all the better. I read it just after you posted it and thought best for me to wait before giving a go.
I agree with Bowler1 on many points, especially about the rapid POV changes. Maybe give half a chapter for each POV in order to keep the flow? Or even one whole chapter but only a short one so the reader can keep the flow and intrigue going?

A number of years ago, I read an SF that had 6 POVS going all at once where all of the POVs overlapped in one way or another, each as their own short chapter. It worked out very well as there was a lot for the reader to keep track of. Just a thought, nothing more.

Back to your story. I enjoy your writing style and I had no problem with the insect references at all. For me, it added to the tension the character felt and brought me into her mind. Then switching to the period style for the second characters POV brought me into the world setting. I enjoyed the contrast of the two very much.

 

[sknox]

This is definitely worth working. And I definitely have a few comments. Onward! (quotes from you are preceded by a > symbol)

>Whispers reach Oak-Rose as she stands at the window gazing out onto the trees. Furtive, excited whispers; frissons of delighted shock.

First sentence is fine, but the second is not. We don't know Oak-Rose yet, so it's too soon to characterize those whispers. Strike the sentence and let what comes after speak to excitement and delighted shock.

Getting to the whispers, it took a while for me to realize they were coming from women inside the house. So far, the only physical orientation is outward, toward trees. So that's where I pictured the whispers. Maybe Sentence Two could address that. Whispers coming from behind. This isn't a huge deal but it was a bit disorienting.

>Muffled whispers. Spilling from pale, painted faces, concealed behind fans of vellum and ivory, lace and mother-of-pearl.

More about whispers. I don't think they need to be muffled, since they're coming from behind fans. Coming immediately after the black face, I read the painted faces as having been painted to be pale, and so wondered if they might be black or dark but that didn't make sense, so it was another point of puzzlement.

The bit about slavery took me aback. Eventually it makes perfect sense, once I place the scene in early modern or even 19thc England. But coming to it cold was, well, another disorienting bit.

> Lady Oak-Rose was power incarnate. I was transfixed.
Transfixed makes me picture the narrator unable to move. Fascinated, maybe? Some other, more portable, reaction?

>The distraction came
This misses an opportunity, I think. It's here you wish to build tension. Something mysterious happens, and only our narrator notices. But the ominou shaking is made parenthetical by sandwiching in first by Mr Eliot and his background, and then be maybe a bit too much description about the paintings. At this point, is the quality of the paintings really more important than the fact that an apparent (to the narrator) earthquake has not moved them? Focus on the ominous here, and let us feel it by feeling the narrator's reactions.

You could try having "then Mr Eliot appeared" immediately after the quake; a sudden arrival, followed by a bit of background on him. Raise the tension, then leave it hanging, followed by his boorish remarks.

Then, after the fan attack (nice), the moment is undercut by the bit about vapours. Consider putting the focus on poor Mrs Browning, who surely has earned her own fainting spell. The narrator rushed to her. Other women and men can react but in the background. They aren't the point. The point is to narrow us down to the wounded Mr Wilson and the somewhat hysterical Mrs Browning, accusations and protests and damp cloths, then Harker with unexpected and somewhat annoying interruption.

Maybe a little more than one sentence to follow. Maybe something about a slow restoration of order. Maybe Harker awaits instructions, the persistent servant. And only then is the Admiral's body found. No need to be coy about that. Not "The Admiral had been found", especially since as far as we know, no one was looking for him. And definitely not "His body, that is," which isn't dramatic enough for the moment. Could the scream be more articulate?
"The Admiral! He's dead!"
OK, that's a bit much. Scream. Someone comes pelting in from another room. "The Admiral. I think he's dead!" Something to keep us right there in the room, rather than observing from a distance.

And lastly but not leastly. I was sort of ok with the alternating POVs and tenses, which is saying something as I generally don't like that sort of nonsense. But I think I'd stick with it. The present tense sets Oak-Rose apart and hints that she is not an ordinary sort of person. Or not a person at all. It might prove difficult over the course of a novel, but you invented the problem, so you get to solve it. <g>

That's for tenses. As for the POV, I'll say that the switching felt a bit rushed. Not too awfully much, but I'd encourage you to think about each tiny scene as still being bound by the scene guidelines. Let each develop character as well as move the plot. Since the scenes are so brief, the development will be tiny, and very likely not every one will serve the purpose, but don't neglect to treat each as an opportunity to advance character, theme, and setting, as well as plot.

Don't put it in the trunk yet. Oak-Rose deserves more of a chance.