Doctor Who; The Giggle ( 60th Anniversary Special 3)

[Pyan]

Well. That was ...extraordinary.
I think I'm going to have to watch it again, if only to sort out what actually happened, and in what order.

 

[nixie]

Well. That was ...extraordinary.
I think I'm going to have to watch it again, if only to sort out what actually happened, and in what order.

Know the feeling, all rather manic.
Don't think it was as good as the previous two specials.

Spoiler: I'm confused.

how is it going to work with two doctors in the universe or is it three? I do hope the new doctor will don some trousers.

 

[Dave]

I think these specials are excellent. I actually like this one the best of the three.

I like that they can bring back old villains like the Toy Master and old companions like Mel. I didn't much like the idea of Q in Star Trek, so I wasn't that keen on the exploits of the Toy Master turning guns to shoot rose petals, nor did I really understand what was going on. There was a lot less "science fiction" and more "fantasy" elements in some earlier WHO so it isn't that strange to bring that kind of thing back, but the idea that the Toy Master could do weird things in his own Universe is quite different to doing it in ours. "He found a way in," is the only explanation we got given.

Then there was capturing the Time Lord Master inside a gold tooth, then losing the tooth, and a nail varnished hand picking it up - quite sure that will be revisited, whatever that meant.

This was a rather adult story, and I'm sure that the animated dolls climbing up Donna will give sleepless nights to some children, but that is what Doctor Who used to be - the Autons inside of dolls was no different really.

The new Doctor is going to be quite a change, I'll have to see if I like him, he seems quite extroverted and a little too camp. I hadn't noticed the lack of trousers, but the undone tie around his neck makes him appear to have just got home from a really good late night party.

I'm quite sure many fans will be annoyed by the Bi-Regeneration. I liked it, but only because I thought everything that was possible with Regenerations had been tried already. I was pleased to have been found wrong. Again, I'm not quite sure how that works either. Of course the TARDIS split in two as well. It is tied to the Doctor so inextricably that you couldn't have two Doctors and only one TARDIS. But is David Tennant going to have parallel adventures now?

When you have any answers, please let me know.

 

[hitmouse]

I think these specials are excellent. I actually like this one the best of the three.

I like that they can bring back old villains like the Toy Master and old companions like Mel. I didn't much like the idea of Q in Star Trek, so I wasn't that keen on the exploits of the Toy Master turning guns to shoot rose petals, nor did I really understand what was going on. There was a lot less "science fiction" and more "fantasy" elements in some earlier WHO so it isn't that strange to bring that kind of thing back, but the idea that the Toy Master could do weird things in his own Universe is quite different to doing it in ours. "He found a way in," is the only explanation we got given.

Then there was capturing the Time Lord Master inside a gold tooth, then losing the tooth, and a nail varnished hand picking it up - quite sure that will be revisited, whatever that meant.

This was a rather adult story, and I'm sure that the animated dolls climbing up Donna will give sleepless nights to some children, but that is what Doctor Who used to be - the Autons inside of dolls was no different really.

The new Doctor is going to be quite a change, I'll have to see if I like him, he seems quite extroverted and a little too camp. I hadn't noticed the lack of trousers, but the undone tie around his neck makes him appear to have just got home from a really good late night party.

I'm quite sure many fans will be annoyed by the Bi-Regeneration. I liked it, but only because I thought everything that was possible with Regenerations had been tried already. I was pleased to have been found wrong. Again, I'm not quite sure how that works either. Of course the TARDIS split in two as well. It is tied to the Doctor so inextricably that you couldn't have two Doctors and only one TARDIS. But is David Tennant going to have parallel adventures now?

When you have any answers, please let me know.

Re clothes. He was sharing David Tennant’s garments. Have another look and see what Tennant was missing after the biregeneration.

 

[Provincial]

I think the new doctor seems amazing, very likeable and very good looking. Disappointed with the bi-regeneration. I think it is going to kill off the series.

 

[Pyan]

Then there was capturing the Time Lord Master inside a gold tooth, then losing the tooth, and a nail varnished hand picking it up - quite sure that will be revisited, whatever that meant.

A nice nod to the end of the 1980 Flash Gordon movie.

 

[BAYLOR]

I think the new doctor seems amazing, very likeable and very good looking. Disappointed with the bi-regeneration. I think it is going to kill off the series.

It opens up all kinds of interesting story possibilities.

 

[Pyan]

I think they'll leave the 10th/14th Doctor in peace to recuperate with his new 'family'.
Then, when we've almost forgotten about him, the 15th Doctor will be really stuck, back-to-the-wall with something and suddenly...

 

[Dave]

Disappointed with the bi-regeneration. I think it is going to kill off the series.

It opens up all kinds of interesting story possibilities.

Then, when we've almost forgotten about him, the 15th Doctor will be really stuck, back-to-the-wall with something and suddenly...

In the past, they've already had stories with the meeting of different 'three Doctors', 'five Doctors' and 'two Doctors', and meeting with the 'War Doctor', and then much, much more recently with 'two Doctors' meeting again, without any need at all to explain it in this way. When you can travel in time and space it is quite easily possible to meet yourself coming the other way*. As far as I can see this makes no difference to anything at all**. The Doctor said it had been 'theoretically possible' and who says it hasn't happened before but no one knew?

The only difference I see would be that the 'Tennant' Doctor is now staying fixed in one place and time i.e. today on Earth. I understand that he feels exhausted, but given that the 'Pertwee' Doctor spent years trying to leave when a similar situation was imposed upon him by the Time Lords, then I just can't see him doing that forever.

*However, they did establish in 'The Day of the Daleks' that there was some kind of physical Law that prevented someone from re-visiting the same time and place over and over again, which would presumably rule out seeing a kind of The Man Who Folded Himself scenario with hundreds of the same Doctor actors in a single place and time. On the other hand, canon in Doctor Who seems to be there only to be broken when its convenient and quite soon after that (or was it before) Jo and the Doctor did meet themselves when playing about with the TARDIS controls.

**One thing it does open up, is a possibility of having multiple different Masters to contend with.

A nice nod to the end of the 1980 Flash Gordon movie.

I'd forgotten that. There was a definite and deliberate homage there.

 

[Provincial]

@Dave, as you say there is plenty of precedent for having two or more doctors existing in the same location and at the same time, and there have been some great stories as a result. My concern is that there is now no longer any real dramatic tension around the regenerations, since no-one has to die in order for it to happen. In fact it doesn’t appear to be more traumatic for the Doctor than a blow to the funny bone any more. When #10 rocked up he was so exhausted it took at least two episodes for him to become fully functional, yet when #15 reappears he is in better shape than ever. Donna says something about Ncuti’s Doctor having been resting, presumably while David Tennant’s has been doing all the hard work, but that ignores the fact that he was part of the Doctor when all that was happening. It is such a pat explanation it reduces the Dr Who series to the level of pre-school programming. In my opinion, obviously!

Dr Who seems to be falling into the same trap that the Marvel Universe has, with reboot after reboot clawing away at the consistency and credibility of the world-building performed by so many excellent writers over the years. I don’t expect most TV viewers to really care about that so long as they are entertained by the stories, and there is no reason why they should, but as a writer (of sorts) that world building matters enormously to me. Without a strong, consistent framework for new writers to work within they are going to get lazy; it is only human nature, after all. It makes Dr Who a prime target for AI scriptwriting. Actors will no longer be picked for their abilities but for their marketability - that’s why David Tennant was brought back, after all, isn’t it? Ultimately it will be overshadowed by something newer, fresher, more creative and original, and as the viewership crumbles it will cease to justify its place in the schedules. It will be dropped, and it won’t be resurrected this time because the baby boomers like myself who remember it’s glory days will no longer be around in the numbers required to form an audience large enough to be an effective pressure group.

I sincerely hope that I am being unduly pessimistic. Cheer me up, somebody, please!

 

[Dave]

My concern is that there is now no longer any real dramatic tension around the regenerations, since no-one has to die in order for it to happen. In fact it doesn’t appear to be more traumatic for the Doctor than a blow to the funny bone any more. When #10 rocked up he was so exhausted it took at least two episodes for him to become fully functional, yet when #15 reappears he is in better shape than ever. Donna says something about Ncuti’s Doctor having been resting, presumably while David Tennant’s has been doing all the hard work, but that is such a pat explanation it reduces the Dr Who series to the level of pre-school programming. In my opinion, obviously!

I did think about that later too. Doctor #1's body was getting old and tired, and he said it was wearing out, and he had to lie down and sleep. Others, including Tennant in this episode, would have died from their injuries if not for the Regeneration. So, you make a good point. I think the explanation (not very clearly made) was that he had won the 3rd Game with the Toy Master, which somehow trumps every kind of science-based or logical explanation, because he comes from a Universe of Fantasy and brought with him these logic-defying abilities. This was why I didn't like the actual story, though I thought it was performed and executed very well for all the reasons that I gave already. This is why Doctor Who has never really been science fiction. It will do the occasional hard SF stories, but mostly it's a Fantasy and anything goes really.

 

[Pyan]

Without a strong, consistent framework for new writers to work within they are going to get lazy; it is only human nature, after all.

I think that's what Steven Moffat and Chris Chibnall let slip when they were the showrunners: I'm hopeful that Russell T Davies will keep a better grip on the quality of the writing.

 

[Ursa major]

Without a strong, consistent framework for new writers to work within

While a lot of great art (of whatever sort) has been created by artists breaking free of the "rules", so has much of it been created by artists finding clever new ways of working (just) within the boundaries of those rules.

At least that's my opinion... but then I find discovering that works or art (particularly music) that I like are the result of the artists being clever, as well as creative, increases my appreciation of them. (Okay, I'll own up to being a "cleverness" junkie who likes to see problems -- and "problems" -- being solved.)

 

[Matteo]

Hmm... I liked it, but it was only OK.

I liked that they brought back a (very) old villain (and good that he was ruthless). Also nice to see (and have referenced) old companions.

It was a little bit shouty and manic but not too much.

Not sure about the explanation for the dummy's image and giggle...but will let that slide.

I'm a bit split* on the bi-generation. It could work out very well and we could see some interesting consequences/stories. Or it could turn out badly.

As for the new Doctor it's too early to tell of course. My problem (and it is my problem) is that I watched Sex Education in which Gatwa played a major role as a very flamboyant/camp/larger than life/outrageous/funny character - and played it rather well. I assume he will not play the Doctor in a similar way (though I suspect he won't be playing it very dry and serious), but I hope my previous experience of him doesn't influence my opinion of him as the Doctor.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new series. The Xmas Special looks like a silly one - which is fine...but I prefer those that a bit more serious and reflective - such as A Christmas Carol and The Widow and the Wardrobe.

* badoom tish! Thank you, I'm here all week...

 

[Dave]

Just some FYI

A nice nod to the end of the 1980 Flash Gordon movie.

I watched the Season 3: The Celestial Toymaker again (only the final episode The Final Test still exists.) The Toymaker does dress quite like Ming the Merciless and even has a jeweled ring on his finger. Failure in the test would have resulted in Dodo and Steven being turned into Doll's House dolls not unlike those that attacked Donna. His assistant, Cyril the nasty schoolboy, is electrocuted when he slips on powder he put down himself during hopscotch test, and then appears to turn into a ventriloquist's dummy not unlike those in his 1925 Soho shop in the this episode.

And Stooky Bill was indeed the name given to the head of a ventriloquist's dummy that Scottish television pioneer John Logie Baird used in his 1924 experiments, though he didn't have a family. So, this story was a very clever and well researched one. More here:

Doctor Who: The Giggle true story – was Stooky Bill real? | Radio Times

The true story of John Logie Baird's invention of television and his use of the puppet Stooky Bill.

www.radiotimes.com

The way that the Doctor escaped at the end of that story did also set it up for future sequels too.

Among the other cryptic things that the Toymaker said in this episode was all of the people he had beaten, such as The Master, but that one person he had lost to, but then he didn't explain further. I do think RTD plans to revisit this story again.

 

[Matteo]

Nice bit of research!

 

[sule]

The sharing of the Doctor's garments (as was pointed out to me) means that, post-bigeneration, the Fourteenth Doctor isn't wearing pants.

Episode was fine, NPH's Toymaker was good. Never really got the big scope they were going for, the stakes felt a lot more personal to me (although I've had that issue with RTD Who before - world-changing things happen then seem to be forgotten about by everyone on the planet). Gatwa's got a good Doctor presence, interested to see how he approaches the role.

 

[K.S. Crooks]

Not a fan of the bi-generation. Now any future Doctor won't have all the memories. Perhaps there will be a need for them to merge in later on. Also be interesting to see who picked up the tooth with The Master inside.

 

[Pyan]

Not a fan of the bi-generation. Now any future Doctor won't have all the memories. Perhaps there will be a need for them to merge in later on.

Why can't each of the bifurcated Doctors have the total memories?

 

[Provincial]

Why can't each of the bifurcated Doctors have the total memories?

I guess presumably because, from now on, they will be living very different lives; if they have some sort of psychic connection which means they are both experiencing the other Doctor’s life as well as their own in real time, simultaneously, surely it would drive them both mad? How would they know which body their mind was in, and therefore which dangers to react to?