Sauron vs Lord Foul

[BAYLOR]

Both are the supreme incarnations of eaves with their respective universes . What are your thoughts on both?

 

[Boaz]

@BAYLOR It's been forty years since I read Donaldson's Thomas Covenant stories. I don't have a concise concept of Lord Foul's character nor manner. Though in posting, I just realized some symbolism... Thomas means twin in ancient Greek and covenant is a formal contract between God and man. I'd have to reread to get a better understanding...

 

[BAYLOR]

@BAYLOR It's been forty years since I read Donaldson's Thomas Covenant stories. I don't have a concise concept of Lord Foul's character nor manner. Though in posting, I just realized some symbolism... Thomas means twin in ancient Greek and covenant is a formal contract between God and man. I'd have to reread to get a better understanding...

Foul has two ferocious looking yellow eyes hidden in shadowy visage and, he was more evocative that Sauron ever seems to be. Thats one key difference right there . And unlike Sauron , Lord Foul was the brother to the creator which implies that he is in some ways a god though not nearly as powerful as the Creator . Sauron was not really god himself,True great power but, he's was a servant of Melkor/Morgoth who was in fact a God of Middle Earth.

One gets the sense that Lord Foul on a power scale, is greater than Sauron.

 

[farntfar]

Both of them seemed to work largely through others despite their apparent power. Sauron through his Nazgul and his orcs, as well as the armies he gathered round him from the south. Foul mainly through the ravers, cavewights and ur-viles etc.
Fouls biggest show of power has to be the sunbane, but even then it was actually powered by the banefire, which itself was powered by ordinary people's blood.
Sauron's main powershow seems to have been his eye and the ring itself which never really showed much power other than corrupting people.
But similarly the other powerful characters didn't seem to do that much actual power-wielding.
I always wondered what Gandalf or Saruman could really do other than persuade people to do good or evil stuff.
And Covenant's power was always pretty local and mostly insignificant in the end.
In both stories it was others who really showed any "Magic"; The elves, the Lords. I don't remember the names of leaders of the Woodhelven (?) and the stonedowners etc.
It's what made them interesting in both cases. It was the seemingly insignificant characters who kept the stories going.

 

[BAYLOR]

Both of them seemed to work largely through others despite their apparent power. Sauron through his Nazgul and his orcs, as well as the armies he gathered round him from the south. Foul mainly through the ravers, cavewights and ur-viles etc.
Fouls biggest show of power has to be the sunbane, but even then it was actually powered by the banefire, which itself was powered by ordinary people's blood.
Sauron's main powershow seems to have been his eye and the ring itself which never really showed much power other than corrupting people.
But similarly the other powerful characters didn't seem to do that much actual power-wielding.
I always wondered what Gandalf or Saruman could really do other than persuade people to do good or evil stuff.
And Covenant's power was always pretty local and mostly insignificant in the end.
In both stories it was others who really showed any "Magic"; The elves, the Lords. I don't remember the names of leaders of the Woodhelven (?) and the stonedowners etc.
It's what made them interesting in both cases. It was the seemingly insignificant characters who kept the stories going.

In the case White Gold Ring , IT very power but also weak and mostLY useless because Covenant spent much of the time not really knowing how to summon is its power except in moment absolute crises.

 

[farntfar]

Yes. Generally at the end of each trilogy. But that seems to be the way with the apparently powerful. Sauron, Gandalf, Foul and Covenant are all described as much more powerful than anyone else, but none of them really display much power.
Galadriel and Elena, for example show much more magical power than them. Also the Nazgul and the Ur-viles, Bombadil and even the forestals.

 

[BAYLOR]

Yes. Generally at the end of each trilogy. But that seems to be the way with the apparently powerful. Sauron, Gandalf, Foul and Covenant are all described as much more powerful than anyone else, but none of them really display much power.
Galadriel and Elena, for example show much more magical power than them. Also the Nazgul and the Ur-viles, Bombadil and even the forestals.

Excellent points

In the case Galadriel vs Elena They had had great power. Galadriel had her ring and Elena and wielded the Staff of Law which had incredible power, The difference between them was Galadriel when offered ultimate power in the Ring was wise enough and sane enough to step back. The same cannot be said of Elena who miss-used the Staff of Law to break the aw of death revive Kevin Landwaster who she wanted to use to defeat Foul which. back fired on her because Foul was able to enslave the spirit of Kevin and turn him against her and what's worse for Elena, is Kevin warned her what would happened if she broke death Law , she chose not to believe him . In the story one get the ires that Elena wasn';t completely sane and was thus was not of sound mind when she made her fateful decision to undo the law of death.

 

[Boaz]

@BAYLOR looks like you found some people who have a perspective on the topic. I was 16 when I read this series. I just read all of Tolkien, Conan, Shannara, John Carter, Anne McCaffrey, Ursula Le Guin, and Lloyd Alexander. I needed more and I found Stephen Donaldson. I also discovered the only other person who read fantasy literature, and who was completely into Donaldson… my girlfriends father. He wanted to discuss the Thomas Covenant series with me, but I felt so uncomfortable doing so. I mean the story opens with the rape of a 16-year-old girl. How do you discuss that with your girlfriends father?

 

[Bick]

Lord Foul was the brother to the creator which implies that he is in some ways a god... Sauron was not really god himself ,True great power but, he's was a servant of Melkor/Morgoth who was in fact a God of Middle Earth.

Maybe. It's true Sauron was not one of the Valar, who were greater beings akin to Olympian 'gods' but the Valar were not the creator of all things - that was Eru (also known as Iluvatar). Eru (God) created the Ainur before the world was made, and these included the Valar (the greatest of the Ainur) and the Maiar, which were somewhat 'lesser' gods. Sauron was a Maiar spirit, so he was actually a 'god' though less powerful than Melkor.

 

[BAYLOR]

@BAYLOR looks like you found some people who have a perspective on the topic. I was 16 when I read this series. I just read all of Tolkien, Conan, Shannara, John Carter, Anne McCaffrey, Ursula Le Guin, and Lloyd Alexander. I needed more and I found Stephen Donaldson. I also discovered the only other person who read fantasy literature, and who was completely into Donaldson… my girlfriends father. He wanted to discuss the Thomas Covenant series with me, but I felt so uncomfortable doing so. I mean the story opens with the rape of a 16-year-old girl. How do you discuss that with your girlfriends father?

I can understand that.

 

[melenkurion abatha]

Interesting discussion. I've read the first six Thomas Covenant novels 4 times throughout my life and I just recently finished The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. I also read the Lord of the Rings for the first time about 4 years ago and enjoyed it far more than I expected.

Possible spoilers below if you haven't read the Thomas Covenant novels
****************************************************************************

Sauron vs. Lord Foul the Despiser

In terms of raw power and what they could do if nobody opposed them then I would say that Lord Foul would be far more terrible. In the books he is described as the inverted brother or doppleganger of the Creator. While the Creator busied himself with the creation of the universe, his children (the Elohim) and the world; Lord Foul was busy tinkering behind the scenes and warping and twisting the Creator's masterpiece. This amused Foul to no end. He marred creation in ways that made a mockery of the Creator and planted terrible banes inside the Earth such as the Illearth Stone.

The Creator was appalled when he discovered what had been done while he was distracted with creation and wrestled with the Despiser and cast him down to the Earth. In an instant he put the final piece of his creation in place, The Arch of Time. Time permanently imprisoned Lord Foul inside of his enemy's creation. Foul's only hope of escape to wage war on the Creator was to procure wild white gold magic to destroy the Arch of Time. He wants nothing more than to escape, destroy the Creator and leave the universe in a perpetual state of chaos and destruction.

My understanding is that Sauron was a lesser angel (or demi-god) to some extent. A Maiar which is less powerful than even a Valar. To me it resembles the relationship between God and Lucifer. Lucifer (Sauron) was created by God (Eru) and God could rid himself of Lucifer whenever he wants but stays his hand out of love and compassion. Even Morgoth himself didn't have the gift of creation. And Morgoth was intensely jealous of Eru because of this.

Where Sauron wanted strict order and frictionless obedience, Foul desired the destruction of all things and to unleash his neverending rage and nastiness. Sauron wanted to rule the entire world but also didn't possess the power to destroy it or even hope to challenge Eru directly. Lord Foul had the power to destroy all of creation and was more than willing to exercise that power if given the chance.

Sauron was willing to negotiate with lesser races and give them a certain degree of autonomy in exchange for loyalty. Lord Foul deceived and enslaved the lesser beings of his world. Foul was Corruption incarnate and he promised certain ones (such as Covenant and the Ravers) a share of the world if they agreed to help him but this was a deception. His ultimate goal was to destroy the entire world and he couldn't care less about any allegiances.

The battle between the Creator and Foul is a manifestation of the battle between the two most primal and powerful universal elements of all. Chaos vs. Order.

I don't mean to take anything away from Sauron. He is definitely an intensely evil villain and an extremely cool one at that. There's something especially disheartening about the prospect of Middle Earth existing under the rule and watchful Eye of Sauron for the rest of eternity where Lord Foul would just obliterate the world and be done with it.

 

[Boaz]

@melenkurion abatha Thank you. A very informative response. So now I don’t have to keep on reading Lord Foul’s Bane. (Insert winking emoji here.)

 

[BAYLOR]

Interesting discussion. I've read the first six Thomas Covenant novels 4 times throughout my life and I just recently finished The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. I also read the Lord of the Rings for the first time about 4 years ago and enjoyed it far more than I expected.

Possible spoilers below if you haven't read the Thomas Covenant novels
****************************************************************************

Sauron vs. Lord Foul the Despiser

In terms of raw power and what they could do if nobody opposed them then I would say that Lord Foul would be far more terrible. In the books he is described as the inverted brother or doppleganger of the Creator. While the Creator busied himself with the creation of the universe, his children (the Elohim) and the world; Lord Foul was busy tinkering behind the scenes and warping and twisting the Creator's masterpiece. This amused Foul to no end. He marred creation in ways that made a mockery of the Creator and planted terrible banes inside the Earth such as the Illearth Stone.

The Creator was appalled when he discovered what had been done while he was distracted with creation and wrestled with the Despiser and cast him down to the Earth. In an instant he put the final piece of his creation in place, The Arch of Time. Time permanently imprisoned Lord Foul inside of his enemy's creation. Foul's only hope of escape to wage war on the Creator was to procure wild white gold magic to destroy the Arch of Time. He wants nothing more than to escape, destroy the Creator and leave the universe in a perpetual state of chaos and destruction.

My understanding is that Sauron was a lesser angel (or demi-god) to some extent. A Maiar which is less powerful than even a Valar. To me it resembles the relationship between God and Lucifer. Lucifer (Sauron) was created by God (Eru) and God could rid himself of Lucifer whenever he wants but stays his hand out of love and compassion. Even Morgoth himself didn't have the gift of creation. And Morgoth was intensely jealous of Eru because of this.

Where Sauron wanted strict order and frictionless obedience, Foul desired the destruction of all things and to unleash his neverending rage and nastiness. Sauron wanted to rule the entire world but also didn't possess the power to destroy it or even hope to challenge Eru directly. Lord Foul had the power to destroy all of creation and was more than willing to exercise that power if given the chance.

Sauron was willing to negotiate with lesser races and give them a certain degree of autonomy in exchange for loyalty. Lord Foul deceived and enslaved the lesser beings of his world. Foul was Corruption incarnate and he promised certain ones (such as Covenant and the Ravers) a share of the world if they agreed to help him but this was a deception. His ultimate goal was to destroy the entire world and he couldn't care less about any allegiances.

The battle between the Creator and Foul is a manifestation of the battle between the two most primal and powerful universal elements of all. Chaos vs. Order.

I don't mean to take anything away from Sauron. He is definitely an intensely evil villain and an extremely cool one at that. There's something especially disheartening about the prospect of Middle Earth existing under the rule and watchful Eye of Sauron for the rest of eternity where Lord Foul would just obliterate the world and be done with it.

Well said, all of it, and welcome to Chrons.

 

[melenkurion abatha]

@melenkurion abatha Thank you. A very informative response. So now I don’t have to keep on reading Lord Foul’s Bane. (Insert winking emoji here.)

Thanks @Boaz I did put a spoiler warning in there though. I would recommend continuing to read the Thomas Covenant books though. Lord Foul's Bane is the toughest to read of the original trilogy but the next two books make up for it.

 

[Boaz]

@melenkurion abatha I read them forty years ago, but I don’t think that I remember many details. I certainly did not think your description of LF or his ambitions spoiled the story in anyway.

 

[BAYLOR]

Thanks @Boaz I did put a spoiler warning in there though. I would recommend continuing to read the Thomas Covenant books though. Lord Foul's Bane is the toughest to read of the original trilogy but the next two books make up for it.

Lord Fouls Bane is a bit of a slog but the series really kicks into overdrive in The Illearth War .

 

[BAYLOR]

Now, put them both in same room and let them have a discussion .

 

[farntfar]

One thing that has always upset me, is how localised it all is in both cases.
(Upset is actually to strong a word, but "concerned me" might be too weak)

What I'm getting at is that in both cases we are lead to believe that these are "World Powers". That all of creation is involved.
But actually Sauron is fighting for Gondor and Eriador, and even Morgoth really seemed only to be concerned with Beleriand. But we are shown that there are other places, Harad and beyond and east of Mordor, and the rest of the now globular Middle Earth that don't come into Sauron's or Morgoth's designs.
Similarly Foul is interested in the Land, but at least the country of the giants and whatever the place where Nom came from was called seem largely untouched by his desires, and we get the impression that there are far more places, continents, etc which are not even mentioned. (The land of the Elohim (?) or whatever they're called, cannot be considered to have a real physical position, but clearly Foul is interested in them.)

I suppose that once Sauron has Gondor, and Eriador, the rest of the world will fall over like dominoes, and the same for Foul and the Land.

I know I'm being picky.
What story has ever been truly global or universal. Whether SF or Fantasy or not, we are always concerned with distances which are fairly easily crossed using the methods or technologies (walking or FTL/Warp) available. (Similarly James Bond can defeat an enemy in one location, once he's found it.) Otherwise the stories would just contain enormous dull gaps for travelling.
Similarly creation happens in hours (for the song of the Ainur) or perhaps days elsewhere, rather than 14 billion years, which would take a very big book.

So another point about Foul/Sauron.
Both involve very long walks/rides/sailings which are actually quite short in real terms, but both are quite closely observed. (with the travels of the Fellowhip of the Ring the most precisely chronicled.)

Oh and someone mentioned than Sauron was a Maia, but, of course, so were Gandalf, Saruman etc.

Were there other creatures on a similar plane to Foul?
Other than, I suppose Covenant. But please don't tell me. I stalled on the Last Chronicles, somewhere in Against All Things Ending . But I may try to finish them one day. (Any advice as to whether it's worth it?)

 

[HareBrain]

Similarly Foul is interested in the Land, but at least the country of the giants and whatever the place where Nom came from was called seem largely untouched by his desires, and we get the impression that there are far more places, continents, etc which are not even mentioned.

I suppose I assumed that the Land was the only place where Earthpower was so strong, and so he wasn't really interested in anywhere else. That does make the world feel much smaller than it "really" is, but that works for the kind of story it is, I think. I was never convinced by the other lands it visited.

(Any advice as to whether it's worth it?)

There are moments of real power in the last books, of a type it's hard to find, so if you were immortal I'd say yes, perhaps. But given that we're not, and that you have to wade through so much repetitive pointless stuff to get to them, I'd say probably not.

 

[farntfar]

that works for the kind of story it is

That's the point I'm making, HB. We are told that these are "World Powers", but really they're fairly parochial.
That fact doesn't make the books less readable or interesting. It just make the idea of "World" less relevant.

As for finishing the last chrons, it's pretty much what I thought. So thanks for confirming it. It seems clear he's trying to tie up all the loose ends, but making pretty heavy going of it all. I've already bought all the books, so I might have another go one day.