DISCUSSION THREAD -- SEPTEMBER 2022 -- 75 Word Challenge

[Swank]

If we all chose favourite fiction based on its ‘quality’ and not its resonance with what makes us tick -including our beliefs and moral code - I’d be amazed,

Sure, but the duscussion paints some stories as advocating or excusing suicide. I didn't see that in any of them. It strikes me as similar to disapproving of the rape in Handmaid's Tale, or the language in Huck Finn.

 

[Cat's Cradle]

This was an easy choice for me. For Peace by @Jo Zebedee is a gem...

Good evening, @Parson! It is a gem, yes... hope you don't mind my mentioning that you've yet to actually post your vote for Jo. Probably you'd come back later to vote, but on the chance it slipped your mind... CC

 

[THX1138]

@JS Wiig I really struggled with this month's because, to be honest, I have no idea of what a code of honor I could live by would look like - and didn't want to write something that was just me being negative about the month's subject.

Yea, that's why I just had fun with the thesaurus this time. I did it for my own self knowing it didn't even come close to being a 75 word story at all. more of a good idea but that's fine. A practice in word play.

 

[StilLearning]

Sure, but the duscussion paints some stories as advocating or excusing suicide. I didn't see that in any of them. It strikes me as similar to disapproving of the rape in Handmaid's Tale, or the language in Huck Finn.

And yet I didn't get that from the discussion - I got that the discussion was about how many people's thoughts, and hence their stories, connected honor and suicide, and what that says: That's, to my mind, a result of how our thinking about 'honor' is influenced by many things, including other stories in various media that focus a lot on the most extreme things people have done in pursuit of what they considered honor.
I got that, perhaps, our view of notions of honor, across cultures and through history, gets distorted by these very extreme deeds of 'honor', the emotional punch the telling about them packs, and we focus on them too much when the word 'honor' comes up. And I could get the implication that maybe this isn't healthy. But I didn't get that the discussion was painting those stories as advocating or excusing those extreme acts (suicide in particular), or excusing them. And I haven't got that anyone is voting on a basis of moral disapproval of exploring an honor-suicide connection - rather that it's not to their personal taste, and there's surprise at how many authors have taken that route. That might be taken as a raised eyebrow at what we as a group associate with honor (or what we'll do to pack drama into 75 words), but it's a long way from passing (and voting by) moral judgement on individual stories.
And even then... I'm reading a lot into the discussion that may not be warranted. We should know better than most how easy it is to generate a false impression when communicating via text alone.

It's also possible that (and I hope this is not the case but statistically it could well be) some folks might have had some experience of that in their lives. In which case they might well find the topic unpleasant, and not to their taste. But, again, I didn't get the impression anyone was presenting their choice as anything other than personal taste, even if they were noting that a number of stories took a route that wasn't too their taste.

And, for the record, I haven't had chance yet to read the stories and choose a vote - I just had two deep fillings done and, combined with a 5 year old to watch, that has done for my attention span. I will get it done tomorrow.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Everything ain’t for everyone. I personally feel sidelined on Chrons from time to time because I write weird fiction/horror. Over the years, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve had confused responses to my work as being ‘dark’ or depressing or what not.

We write what we know. I like existential, dense and/or tonal stuff so that’s what I write. For myself. Not votes (just as well).

It’s often the reason why CC gets many of my votes as he tends to do dark rather splendidly imo.

I have to agree with Swank; I’ve noticed quite a few posts over the last few months where people have made comments to the effect that they don’t see the link to the theme. The 300 is the worst for that however, as I think many people find it hard to get over the fact some writers don’t reference the image overtly.

We all have our ‘rules’. One of mine is that of a 75 worder uses the actual theme word in their story, I see it as a minus.

 

[THX1138]

Creative writing is all about just that, how are we inspired by the topic. But not everyone will find inspiration in the topic at times, and that's fine.
We forget (guilty here!) that creative writing is an exercise in abstract/emotional/descriptive thinking and a chance to see how others approach the topic as creative writers.
At least that's how I take it for myself; a free writing class that is showing its fruits in my novel writing.

 

[JS Wiig]

I didn’t dislike, nor was turned off by any of the killing oneself stories, nor do I disapprove of the usage in another’s interpretation of honor, and many, if not most, if not all were very well written.

I just happened to like the story I voted for more than the rest, for multiple reasons, many of them, if not most, not even tangible let alone discernible. The lighter, friendlier, teaching our children the honor in peace rather than the honor in violence and death just happened to be one of the reasons I could actually articulate, so I mentioned it. As has been said many a time: “There’s no accounting for taste, eh?”

 

[THX1138]

I didn’t dislike, nor was turned off by any of the killing oneself stories, nor do I disapprove of the usage in another’s interpretation of honor, and many, if not most, if not all were very well written.

I just happened to like the story I voted for more than the rest, for multiple reasons, many of them, if not most, not even tangible let alone discernible. The lighter, friendlier, teaching our children the honor in peace rather than the honor in violence and death just happened to be one of the reasons I could actually articulate, so I mentioned it. As has been said many a time: “There’s no accounting for taste, eh?”

You have a refined taste, and a valid reason for it!

 

[Swank]

I got that, perhaps, our view of notions of honor, across cultures and through history, gets distorted by these very extreme deeds of 'honor', the emotional punch the telling about them packs, and we focus on them too much when the word 'honor' comes up. And I could get the implication that maybe this isn't healthy.

The one story each of us was allowed to write isn't the length and breadth of our feelings on honor - it has more to do with what kind of events seem punchy enough to be worthy of 75 words.

My main point is that people expressed that they did not vote for something due to what essentially amounts to a keyword. And that encourages writers to avoid disapproval in the future rather than making choices primarily around creativity.

Everything ain’t for everyone. I personally feel sidelined on Chrons from time to time because I write weird fiction/horror. Over the years, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve had confused responses to my work as being ‘dark’ or depressing or what not.

And as you and I have discussed, hard SF also seems to be something of a pariah. Your writing is lovely and it surprises doesn't surprise me at all that it is overlooked.

(Speaking of overlooked - you, @Victoria Silverwolf and @sule lost the vote I gave to @Troyzan787. Huzzah! to the runners up.)



I don't know about everyone else, but I don't read other entries when I write. So if there end up being a lot of pieces with similar elements, that's random luck. Readers should read every story with fresh eyes - which is all the point I was making.

 

[Cat's Cradle]

It’s often the reason why CC gets many of my votes as he tends to do dark rather splendidly imo.

Wow! Thank you, pH - that's high praise from someone I consider to be one of the finest writers on the site.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

The one story each of us was allowed to write isn't the length and breadth of our feelings on honor - it has more to do with what kind of events seem punchy enough to be worthy of 75 words.

My main point is that people expressed that they did not vote for something due to what essentially amounts to a keyword. And that encourages writers to avoid disapproval in the future rather than making choices primarily around creativity.



And as you and I have discussed, hard SF also seems to be something of a pariah. Your writing is lovely and it surprises doesn't surprise me at all that it is overlooked.

(Speaking of overlooked - you, @Victoria Silverwolf and @sule lost the vote I gave to @Troyzan787. Huzzah! to the runners up.)



I don't know about everyone else, but I don't read other entries when I write. So if there end up being a lot of pieces with similar elements, that's random luck. Readers should read every story with fresh eyes - which is all the point I was making.

I think we can write a punchy 75 word that still encapsulates our feelings of what honour is. And if any writer is put off their personal creativity by reader feedback on their subject matter, especially in a limited flash fiction forum, then there are wider areas of confidence that some mentoring might help with. Or more writing. Or reading one star reviews of books you love and others hate. Or lots of ways - but being sure about your themes and approach to criticism is a key stage of a writing journey.
Hard sf is always a hard sell, sadly - even at full length it struggles comparitively.

hitting keywords is part of being a commercially successful writer - which may, of course, have little to do with writing well, creatively or on original themes. But it’s still part of the writing journey to learn to hit the keywords, if required (if anyone wants to make money at this game, they’ll have to take the odd paid gig which says ‘make them cry. In 1000 words.’ And the like.)

 

[StilLearning]

The one story each of us was allowed to write isn't the length and breadth of our feelings on honor - it has more to do with what kind of events seem punchy enough to be worthy of 75 words.

My main point is that people expressed that they did not vote for something due to what essentially amounts to a keyword. And that encourages writers to avoid disapproval in the future rather than making choices primarily around creativity.

I think, and this is only my opinion, I'd rather they went ahead and expressed, honestly, that the keyword/topic was what put them off.

It's in no way practical to mandate that people vote for creative skill over keywords/subjects - in that sense maybe I have to disagree that pure creativity is what the competition is, effectively, about. It's a part of it. And, absolutely, we can assert that in our opinion they should vote for creativity. It's fair comment that people expressing how they were influenced by certain keywords/topics might encourage approval seeking over creativity (especially if it's very widespread) from some folk. But, by the same mechanism, if we all start expressing disapproval of those who admit to having been influenced by a keyword/topic, we'll just encourage people to not be forthcoming and honest about why they voted the way they did. That doesn't help anyone, as far as I can tell.

It's inaccurate, I think, to go about thinking what we say and how we vote won't influence others, or that we carry zero responsibility for that. But - and I may explain this thought badly - I'm not here solely to win, I'm here to express something creatively. That doesn't require popularity or widespread approval, and it's a person's choice if they pick creativity over popularity, or seek to balance them. And it's better to be able to make that choice with a clear view of what potential voters go for, and why - because it's also their choice if they vote for what they found pleasant, or for creativity, or other things

Hey, I write support materials for hard sf worldbuilding - no matter how skillfully I do it I'll never make it appeal and sell to the majority. If I really needed to churn money out I'd write erotica. Fortunately I don't need to, because I'd find that soul destroying - I'm not mentally and emotionally set up for it. But I'd rather know that the worst erotica probably outsells my best planet-building ten times over just because it's erotica, and be able to make the informed choice to do what I love, because I have that passion for it, while I have the opportunity. It'd suck to write planet building and not understand why it was outsold by terribly executed & unoriginal erotica

 

[Phyrebrat]

[Beavis] Hehe erotica … [/Beavis]

It looks like some of my words in my original post in this may’ve been taken as an accusation. To clarify, I wasn’t berating people who don’t like dark fiction etc, but to say the challenges should be for you to write what you like, as opposed to courting votes.

Sure, it’s a challenge, but you have to enjoy it.

Do I feel a little lonely here when wanting to talk about horror? Definitely. But if I went to another genre forum, it won’t have anywhere near the traffic of Chrons, poor or absent moderation, and no sense of community like this place. That’s why I stay.

If I could have one thing it would be more horror readers here — and less of the ‘I don’t like horror’ comments that, after time, start to have an eroding effect on me. I’m sure it’s not intentional but when it’s something you hear regularly, it becomes tiresome*. And by horror readers, I don’t mean more fatuous threads like ‘What’s your favourite/least favourite bla bla bla’ threads. I can get that on Twitter.

I suppose what I’m picking up on is the need (for want of a better phrase) for permission to write what you like. We see it in the writing discussions often when (newer?) members/writers ask if they should do something rather than how to do it. Or even asking questions that should be the author’s choice. It seems like a lack of agency mixed with poor confidence.

Write what you know, as I said, and write what you like. There’re always going to be consumers who don’t like your stuff and will justify why they don’t. Since starting the podcast with Dan, we’ve heard so many times from our great guests that people adhere to random rules they’ve heard about publishing, querying, synopses, stuff about prologues and epilogues, adverbs etc etc etc ad astra.

*one thing I find exhausting if not ignorant is the line of thought that writing on dark subjects must be a window into some kind of wicked or broken soul. Thankfully those throwaway comments don’t come up here

 

[mosaix]

We all have our ‘rules’. One of mine is that of a 75 worder uses the actual theme word in their story, I see it as a minus.

I tend to agree with this and I try to avoid it in my 75 word entries.

I know a lot of people disagree with this but for me it falls into the category of ‘show don’t tell’. In other words I think the story is stronger for implying the theme rather than spelling it out directly.

 

[Elckerlyc]

We now briefly interrupt this discussion to facilitate the act of voting.

Shortlisted (for various reasons, that sometimes are too complex to express in a few words):
@Victoria Silverwolf - That Thy Days May Be Long Upon the Land
@Jo Zebedee - For Peace
@Cat's Cradle - The New Queen's Bath
@Phyrebrat - Watchman
@AnRoinnUltra - The left shoe of dignity

The vote went to... @Jo Zebedee

Back to our discussion panel.

 

[StilLearning]

[Beavis] Hehe erotica … [/Beavis]

It looks like some of my words in my original post in this may’ve been taken as an accusation. To clarify, I wasn’t berating people who don’t like dark fiction etc, but to say the challenges should be for you to write what you like, as opposed to courting votes.

Sure, it’s a challenge, but you have to enjoy it.

Do I feel a little lonely here when wanting to talk about horror? Definitely. But if I went to another genre forum, it won’t have anywhere near the traffic of Chrons, poor or absent moderation, and no sense of community like this place. That’s why I stay.

If I could have one thing it would be more horror readers here — and less of the ‘I don’t like horror’ comments that, after time, start to have an eroding effect on me. I’m sure it’s not intentional but when it’s something you hear regularly, it becomes tiresome*. And by horror readers, I don’t mean more fatuous threads like ‘What’s your favourite/least favourite bla bla bla’ threads. I can get that on Twitter.

*one thing I find exhausting if not ignorant is the line of thought that writing on dark subjects must be a window into some kind of wicked or broken soul. Thankfully those throwaway comments

I actually got the nickname Beavis from a pub acquaintance - apparently I do have that laugh For the record I do enjoy horror, especially cosmic and nautical themed horror - I've been enjoying an audio-book collection on youtube called 'Horrorbabble' recently.

 

[VRlass]

Hey guys, I kinda feel called up in here.

There is a saying—not sure you have it in english—dont ever ask poet what he ment.
I love Neil Gaiman’s we write lies to tell the truth.

All storytelling is basically trying to transfer certain abstract content from someone’s mind into another using protocol made of commonly recognised symbols.
We use darkness as any other poetic tool to pinpoint an aspect of reality, to resonate with readers inner world, to drag them a into a place in their mind they never knew existed.
Are we dragging them to place of growth and illumination… Who can tell.
The sad part is that in the grown up world while we exert controll only over the words we say, we are accountable by how people understand us.

It sucks to link the darkness of writting with soul of the writter, but if your writting is the only way you communicate with some people—and you cannot allways address millions of your fans personally—this IS the window to your mind, but mostly not the underrepresented bits. People read only dark bits from you, they assume this is what you are, this is natural if they have nothing to counter it.

If someone thinks my work is to advocate for x, so i must be x’ish, while I am trying to do the opposite, it might be that i communicate poorly, or it might be that the person is stupid, but even if the later is true I can still make my communication protocol more precise, to make it easier for readers to get where I want to drag them.

Probably I still suck, but hey, I am here to have fun and learn
Peace,
VR

 

[AnRoinnUltra]

Late to the voting, but better late than never:

I thought there was great variety to the entries this month, and almost voted for:

@Cat's Cradle The New Queen's Bath -ceremonial honour, really liked this story and thought there was something very human about the tale.

@Phyrebrat Watchman -the plot went a bit over my head but the turn of phrase and rich language was hard to ignore.

@paranoid marvin How to get ahead in medieval times -deadly stuff, am a fan of the author's writing style anyway, this one had a feel of Monty Python's Holy Grail about it.

Voted for;

@Hugh A Mullah Nasruddin Story -good fun, I liked the irony of thoughtfully turning a blind eye to what is right.

Anyhows, thanks all for all the stories -great theme and hard luck @Parson (and tough call for the ref so fair play to both).

Thanks too for the unexpected votes and mentions -happy days

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I went for Peter V because the last line made me smile but JS Whig and Mosaix were close too

 

[chrispenycate]

My short list ran to:- Bren G, Christine Wheelwright, Jo Zebedee, M. Robert Gibson, paranoid marvin, sule, The Judge, Troyzan787 and Victoria Silverwolf , ultimately voting for Her Honour.

Thanks as usual to Parson and Victoria for informing me of what the stories were about (grins) and to nixie for noticing me.

As for genre, as it was open I don't even need to write fiction.