Swank
and debonair
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When does he say that?He believes in order and that the Rebel alliance is the enemy of order.
When does he say that?He believes in order and that the Rebel alliance is the enemy of order.
"Does not a stream, boundless as ocean, deep as vacuum, yawn between us?”Yawn!
I didn't see what you wrote on it-I was just following my train of thought over the cliff.Doesn't that all make my point that Lucas subverted the Hero's Journey?
The characterization is all over the place.In relation Luke, does he need to be rescued by his father, or does he purposely put himself in jeopardy so that his father must choose between himself and the Emperor?
It's interesting that Darth is 'saved' by coming back over from the Dark Side. But I'm not sure that he does. He believes in order and that the Rebel alliance is the enemy of order. That he saves his son's life doesn't change that; it just means that he saves his son's life. He has already told Luke that they can rule the galaxy together, which makes you wonder if he had an intention to kill the Emperor all along and take his place, with Like taking his father's place as the new Emperor's right hand man.
Tarkin is the head of the Death Star, and possibly the Empire's military. But the Empire has all sorts of people that don't work directly for him. Vader is one of them. Tarkin clearly feel he has been granted enough authority and autonomy to handle the military matters for the Emperor, and even express his displeasure about Vader to him. I don't know why you'd assume he's a figurehead from Tarkin's SW dialogue.The characterization is all over the place.
Luke may have let himself be victimized to bring out his father's love.
Maybe--but it looked to me like he was unprepared for the blasts of energy.
Also, Darth Vader is different in each movie. In the first he is the henchman, in the second he is a scheming villain who is in control of his own mind.
The Emperor is presented as the weak one--he is not confident about surviving against Luke.
In the third, Vader is the mind slave and the Emperor is totally confident.
The impression one gets from the original movie is that the Emperor is a figurehead leader--he has no real power, Tarkin is the real leader of the Empire and Darth Vader obeys him.
Tarkin even threatens Vader "I'm taking an awful risk Vader, this had better work."
If Iron Man wasn't so fun, I don't know if they would have progressed from there. They had already made two Hulk's that didn't lead to the Avengers.That said, I did enjoy the early MCU movies,
Because Tarkin makes all the decisions and there is no evidence the Emperor has any direct role as Vader's boss. "He helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi."Tarkin is the head of the Death Star, and possibly the Empire's military. But the Empire has all sorts of people that don't work directly for him. Vader is one of them. Tarkin clearly feel he has been granted enough authority and autonomy to handle the military matters for the Emperor, and even express his displeasure about Vader to him. I don't know why you'd assume he's a figurehead from Tarkin's SW dialogue.
Oh-you must be going by the revised versions. I am going by the original theatrical version.Vader does as he sees fit when out of direct contact with the Emperor, but we do see the Emperor's coercive power in Empire during the holo session. When in his presence, the Emperor can read and manipulate Vader in a way he cannot remotely. He also has something to lose when he goes in front of the Emperor - his son.
No, I meant the theatrical. But I think you misread my post: Vader remains fairly independent when out of physical contact with the Emperor - including when they are communicating via holo. When in person, the Emperor is extremely dangerous and Vader has less leeway to speak his mind.Oh-you must be going by the revised versions. I am going by the original theatrical version.
The Emperor in the original version is very worried about Luke and Vader suggests they can try to make him an ally.
The Emperor says "can it be done?"
And at the end of the movie Vader is telling Luke that they can join against the Emperor.
They dropped that layer of complexity for ROTJ.
They made the Emperor the super villain and Vader was under his control.
And the Empire's military was now getting direct orders from the Emperor.
And originally, Vader was not Luke's father.
That seems a given. It was not pre-planned.
Likewise Leia was not Luke's sister originally but I suspect the Other was always going to be female if Lucas had done it himself.
They didn't drop it, Vader changed. He witnessed Luke's sacrifice in ESB and his confidence when he turns himself in. Vader realizes that Luke is not going to team up with him for anything other than the destruction of the Empire, and he's questioning whether he wants to back the Emperor that he was already thinking of killing against a son he admires.And at the end of the movie Vader is telling Luke that they can join against the Emperor.
They dropped that layer of complexity for ROTJ.
Originally, Vader has a relationship with both Anakin and Ben. The only thing that changed is the nature of that relationship - Ben's assertion of "killed" became philosophical not biological. It isn't like they made Greedo Luke's father - there was already a strong familial connection.And originally, Vader was not Luke's father.
That seems a given. It was not pre-planned.
Likewise Leia was not Luke's sister originally but I suspect the Other was always going to be female if Lucas had done it himself.
The "other" is a line from ESB. ESB is also the film that reveals her being his sister. How could there be any kind of "other"?
I think you're taking a macro view of how stories are created and presuming that the creative process is the same as the actual story. It is not.In 2005 Gary Kurtz said the original plan for the sequels was that in ROTJ Vader and the emperor fight for control of Luke, Vader dies, Han also dies, Leia becomes the new head of the Republic, while Luke goes off in the wilderness dealing with remnants of the Empire. In Episode 9, Luke confronts the Emperor and seeks the Other.
Rey became the Other. They shuffled a few things around but stuck to the Lucas plot line.
In ROTJ Obi Wan Kenobi didn't know about Leia being a child of Anakin yet in the Prequels he did.
Just because Leia hears a message from Luke doesn't mean she is his sister. It may have been a Jedi power like a choke hold. They needed some way to get help for Luke--what else could they do? So he sends out a psychic cry for help to whoever can hear him. It's either her or Chewie.
Kenobi and Luke weren't related yet Luke sees his ghost.
And you said that Vader was stronger when he wasn't in direct contact with the Emperor but in ROTJ when he was with Luke he says he must obey the Emperor even though he is not on the moon of Endor. he is definitely behaving in a way that suggests a mental struggle---ignoring everything he did prior--like his mass murders.
TESB set it up that Vader would kill anyone who displeased him (and now his choke power could go for long distances--he could kill someone on a different ship). But at the end he leaves Piett alone because he is distracted by Luke.
The reality is Vader was originally a villain.
He met Leia a few times yet he never sensed she was related or anything.
When he says of Luke "the Force is strong with this one" I don't think it was intended that he felt Force power in him--I think it was meant as a figure of speech like "God's on his side." The way he says it sounds like "stubborn *******" not anything heartfelt or mysterious.
The other side of it is that Obi Wan Kenobi goes from being some classic old warrior to someone who really screwed up and created the enemy that destroyed the Jedi Knights!
Imagine if he had told Luke in the 1977 movie--"come with me on an adventure--oh BTW--I guess i should confess, I caused the Jedi to die out. Alright let's go."
Luke and Leia almost had a romantic relationship--that was one of the criticisms of ROTJ. Many people felt it was a cheap surprise twist that they were related.There is no dishonesty in how Luke, Leia and Vader were unaware their connection in SW.
Luke and Leia almost had a romantic relationship--that was one of the criticisms of ROTJ. Many people felt it was a cheap surprise twist that they were related.
Even the claim that Darth Vader was Luke's father was questioned because he was a murderer--he may have been lying for personal advantage.
That is why Luke has to ask Yoda for confirmation.
Was the Tarzan yell uttered by Chewbacca also good writing?
Questioned by who? Luke and the audience should be skeptical. However, it fits with the story given in SW.Luke and Leia almost had a romantic relationship--that was one of the criticisms of ROTJ. Many people felt it was a cheap surprise twist that they were related.
Even the claim that Darth Vader was Luke's father was questioned because he was a murderer--he may have been lying for personal advantage.
That is why Luke has to ask Yoda for confirmation.
No. Neither were multiple musical numbers and Ewoks in general. ROTJ is the beginning of the end as far as Lucas turning great filmmaking into schlock. ROTJ is not nearly as good as the prior films - it just isn't nearly as awful as everything after.Was the Tarzan yell uttered by Chewbacca also good writing?
Questioned by who? Luke and the audience should be skeptical. However, it fits with the story given in SW.
No. Neither were multiple musical numbers and Ewoks in general. ROTJ is the beginning of the end as far as Lucas turning great filmmaking into schlock. ROTJ is not nearly as good as the prior films - it just isn't nearly as awful as everything after.
I prefer not to make a fuss about continuity. IMO it gets in the way of a good story more often than it benefits. I wish people nowadays wrote things more like folk tales or, say, Thomas Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur where contradictions and disjunctions abound and are passed over without comment.
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