What are Your Thoughts on Disney's Ownership of the Marvel And Star Wars Franchises ?

[Swank]

He believes in order and that the Rebel alliance is the enemy of order.

When does he say that?

 

[KGeo777]

Yawn!

"Does not a stream, boundless as ocean, deep as vacuum, yawn between us?”

 

[KGeo777]

Doesn't that all make my point that Lucas subverted the Hero's Journey?

I didn't see what you wrote on it-I was just following my train of thought over the cliff.

 

[KGeo777]

In relation Luke, does he need to be rescued by his father, or does he purposely put himself in jeopardy so that his father must choose between himself and the Emperor?

It's interesting that Darth is 'saved' by coming back over from the Dark Side. But I'm not sure that he does. He believes in order and that the Rebel alliance is the enemy of order. That he saves his son's life doesn't change that; it just means that he saves his son's life. He has already told Luke that they can rule the galaxy together, which makes you wonder if he had an intention to kill the Emperor all along and take his place, with Like taking his father's place as the new Emperor's right hand man.

The characterization is all over the place.
Luke may have let himself be victimized to bring out his father's love.
Maybe--but it looked to me like he was unprepared for the blasts of energy.
Also, Darth Vader is different in each movie. In the first he is the henchman, in the second he is a scheming villain who is in control of his own mind.
The Emperor is presented as the weak one--he is not confident about surviving against Luke.
In the third, Vader is the mind slave and the Emperor is totally confident.
The impression one gets from the original movie is that the Emperor is a figurehead leader--he has no real power, Tarkin is the real leader of the Empire and Darth Vader obeys him.
Tarkin even threatens Vader "I'm taking an awful risk Vader, this had better work."

 

[Swank]

The characterization is all over the place.
Luke may have let himself be victimized to bring out his father's love.
Maybe--but it looked to me like he was unprepared for the blasts of energy.
Also, Darth Vader is different in each movie. In the first he is the henchman, in the second he is a scheming villain who is in control of his own mind.
The Emperor is presented as the weak one--he is not confident about surviving against Luke.
In the third, Vader is the mind slave and the Emperor is totally confident.
The impression one gets from the original movie is that the Emperor is a figurehead leader--he has no real power, Tarkin is the real leader of the Empire and Darth Vader obeys him.
Tarkin even threatens Vader "I'm taking an awful risk Vader, this had better work."

Tarkin is the head of the Death Star, and possibly the Empire's military. But the Empire has all sorts of people that don't work directly for him. Vader is one of them. Tarkin clearly feel he has been granted enough authority and autonomy to handle the military matters for the Emperor, and even express his displeasure about Vader to him. I don't know why you'd assume he's a figurehead from Tarkin's SW dialogue.

Vader is also fairly consistent in being an independent operative of the Emperor, even if he acknowledges Tarkin's authority. Vader is like the head of the SS in WWII Germany - below the head of the army, but with a more personal connection to Hitler. Also, Vader is a lord, implying he's a member of an aristocracy that is separate from the military meritocracy. "Mof" appears to be a rank like Marshall or Bashar rather than a title like Baron.

But, after Tarkin's death, Vader's position in the Empire's military may have changed.


Vader does as he sees fit when out of direct contact with the Emperor, but we do see the Emperor's coercive power in Empire during the holo session. When in his presence, the Emperor can read and manipulate Vader in a way he cannot remotely. He also has something to lose when he goes in front of the Emperor - his son.

So I don't see Vader as changing so much as witnessing his authority in different situations.

 

[.matthew.]

I'd say that both franchises lack art, soul, creativity, or even the slightest hint of originality.

That said, I did enjoy the early MCU movies, but rapidly lost interest as they crammed more and more characters together to drag the fans of one into the other. Don't even get me started on the Avengers finales...

I suppose the first Guardians of the Galaxy was fun too, so I'll revise that first statement to mean 'today' as the first few ventures were enjoyable and accessible to watch.

 

[Swank]

That said, I did enjoy the early MCU movies,

If Iron Man wasn't so fun, I don't know if they would have progressed from there. They had already made two Hulk's that didn't lead to the Avengers.

 

[KGeo777]

Tarkin is the head of the Death Star, and possibly the Empire's military. But the Empire has all sorts of people that don't work directly for him. Vader is one of them. Tarkin clearly feel he has been granted enough authority and autonomy to handle the military matters for the Emperor, and even express his displeasure about Vader to him. I don't know why you'd assume he's a figurehead from Tarkin's SW dialogue.

Because Tarkin makes all the decisions and there is no evidence the Emperor has any direct role as Vader's boss. "He helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi."

The Force religion is also so vague in 1977 that Tarkin seems to regard it as something of a myth. If The Emperor was a Sithy person why did Tarkin act like Vader was the last practitioner? And the reactions everyone has to the choke hold suggests they had never seen Vader do that before.

It's not like they had it all planned out. They changed things with each movie.
The Emperor in TESB is not sharp-witted or gifted with prophecy.

 

[KGeo777]

Vader does as he sees fit when out of direct contact with the Emperor, but we do see the Emperor's coercive power in Empire during the holo session. When in his presence, the Emperor can read and manipulate Vader in a way he cannot remotely. He also has something to lose when he goes in front of the Emperor - his son.

Oh-you must be going by the revised versions. I am going by the original theatrical version.
The Emperor in the original version is very worried about Luke and Vader suggests they can try to make him an ally.
The Emperor says "can it be done?"
And at the end of the movie Vader is telling Luke that they can join against the Emperor.
They dropped that layer of complexity for ROTJ.
They made the Emperor the super villain and Vader was under his control.
And the Empire's military was now getting direct orders from the Emperor.

And originally, Vader was not Luke's father.
That seems a given. It was not pre-planned.
Likewise Leia was not Luke's sister originally but I suspect the Other was always going to be female if Lucas had done it himself.

 

[KGeo777]

Actually the Emperor in TESB does have some prophetic powers--but it doesn't appear to be developed. He gets spooked by a vision that Luke will harm him and has to phone Vader for a comfort talk.

 

[Swank]

Oh-you must be going by the revised versions. I am going by the original theatrical version.
The Emperor in the original version is very worried about Luke and Vader suggests they can try to make him an ally.
The Emperor says "can it be done?"
And at the end of the movie Vader is telling Luke that they can join against the Emperor.
They dropped that layer of complexity for ROTJ.
They made the Emperor the super villain and Vader was under his control.
And the Empire's military was now getting direct orders from the Emperor.

And originally, Vader was not Luke's father.
That seems a given. It was not pre-planned.
Likewise Leia was not Luke's sister originally but I suspect the Other was always going to be female if Lucas had done it himself.

No, I meant the theatrical. But I think you misread my post: Vader remains fairly independent when out of physical contact with the Emperor - including when they are communicating via holo. When in person, the Emperor is extremely dangerous and Vader has less leeway to speak his mind.

 

[Swank]

And at the end of the movie Vader is telling Luke that they can join against the Emperor.
They dropped that layer of complexity for ROTJ.

They didn't drop it, Vader changed. He witnessed Luke's sacrifice in ESB and his confidence when he turns himself in. Vader realizes that Luke is not going to team up with him for anything other than the destruction of the Empire, and he's questioning whether he wants to back the Emperor that he was already thinking of killing against a son he admires.

And originally, Vader was not Luke's father.
That seems a given. It was not pre-planned.
Likewise Leia was not Luke's sister originally but I suspect the Other was always going to be female if Lucas had done it himself.

Originally, Vader has a relationship with both Anakin and Ben. The only thing that changed is the nature of that relationship - Ben's assertion of "killed" became philosophical not biological. It isn't like they made Greedo Luke's father - there was already a strong familial connection.

The "other" is a line from ESB. ESB is also the film that reveals her being his sister. How could there be any kind of "other"?

 

[KGeo777]

The "other" is a line from ESB. ESB is also the film that reveals her being his sister. How could there be any kind of "other"?

In 2005 Gary Kurtz said the original plan for the sequels was that in ROTJ Vader and the emperor fight for control of Luke, Vader dies, Han also dies, Leia becomes the new head of the Republic, while Luke goes off in the wilderness dealing with remnants of the Empire. In Episode 9, Luke confronts the Emperor and seeks the Other.
Rey became the Other. They shuffled a few things around but stuck to the Lucas plot line.

In ROTJ Obi Wan Kenobi didn't know about Leia being a child of Anakin yet in the Prequels he did.
Just because Leia hears a message from Luke doesn't mean she is his sister. It may have been a Jedi power like a choke hold. They needed some way to get help for Luke--what else could they do? So he sends out a psychic cry for help to whoever can hear him. It's either her or Chewie.

Kenobi and Luke weren't related yet Luke sees his ghost.

And you said that Vader was stronger when he wasn't in direct contact with the Emperor but in ROTJ when he was with Luke he says he must obey the Emperor even though he is not on the moon of Endor. he is definitely behaving in a way that suggests a mental struggle---ignoring everything he did prior--like his mass murders.
TESB set it up that Vader would kill anyone who displeased him (and now his choke power could go for long distances--he could kill someone on a different ship). But at the end he leaves Piett alone because he is distracted by Luke.

The reality is Vader was originally a villain.
He met Leia a few times yet he never sensed she was related or anything.

When he says of Luke "the Force is strong with this one" I don't think it was intended that he felt Force power in him--I think it was meant as a figure of speech like "God's on his side." The way he says it sounds like "stubborn *******" not anything heartfelt or mysterious.

The other side of it is that Obi Wan Kenobi goes from being some classic old warrior to someone who really screwed up and created the enemy that destroyed the Jedi Knights!
Imagine if he had told Luke in the 1977 movie--"come with me on an adventure--oh BTW--I guess i should confess, I caused the Jedi to die out. Alright let's go."

 

[Swank]

In 2005 Gary Kurtz said the original plan for the sequels was that in ROTJ Vader and the emperor fight for control of Luke, Vader dies, Han also dies, Leia becomes the new head of the Republic, while Luke goes off in the wilderness dealing with remnants of the Empire. In Episode 9, Luke confronts the Emperor and seeks the Other.
Rey became the Other. They shuffled a few things around but stuck to the Lucas plot line.

In ROTJ Obi Wan Kenobi didn't know about Leia being a child of Anakin yet in the Prequels he did.
Just because Leia hears a message from Luke doesn't mean she is his sister. It may have been a Jedi power like a choke hold. They needed some way to get help for Luke--what else could they do? So he sends out a psychic cry for help to whoever can hear him. It's either her or Chewie.

Kenobi and Luke weren't related yet Luke sees his ghost.

And you said that Vader was stronger when he wasn't in direct contact with the Emperor but in ROTJ when he was with Luke he says he must obey the Emperor even though he is not on the moon of Endor. he is definitely behaving in a way that suggests a mental struggle---ignoring everything he did prior--like his mass murders.
TESB set it up that Vader would kill anyone who displeased him (and now his choke power could go for long distances--he could kill someone on a different ship). But at the end he leaves Piett alone because he is distracted by Luke.

The reality is Vader was originally a villain.
He met Leia a few times yet he never sensed she was related or anything.

When he says of Luke "the Force is strong with this one" I don't think it was intended that he felt Force power in him--I think it was meant as a figure of speech like "God's on his side." The way he says it sounds like "stubborn *******" not anything heartfelt or mysterious.

The other side of it is that Obi Wan Kenobi goes from being some classic old warrior to someone who really screwed up and created the enemy that destroyed the Jedi Knights!
Imagine if he had told Luke in the 1977 movie--"come with me on an adventure--oh BTW--I guess i should confess, I caused the Jedi to die out. Alright let's go."

I think you're taking a macro view of how stories are created and presuming that the creative process is the same as the actual story. It is not.

Star Wars is what you see in the film - nothing more or less. Star Wars may have started in Lucas' head as Flash Gordon, but Flash Gordon is not on the screen. ESB is a complete film with complete ideas - that includes the way the writers integrated old story ideas with new. ESB is about the Skywalker family discovering each other. Their perceptive powers are limited and it takes a lot of awareness and contact for the characters to see it. The Force is not Ancestry.com. The Empire has an extensive intelligence service to piece together who Ben was traveling with - they had already investigated and killed Luke's family.

And subsequent films, cartoons, whatever don't change what happened in that film. There is no dishonesty in how Luke, Leia and Vader were unaware their connection in SW. That's why the surprises of ESB work so well - because there is neither conflict nor foreshadowing in SW. That's good writing.



Ben is not a "ghost". Jedis don't haunt people, they become different types of life and they communicate directly with the Jedis that they want to. Leia doesn't see Ben, Anakin or Yoda. The Force is not fantasy - it is an aspect of a science fiction story. It has rules that are different than the occult. There is almost no overlap between discorporate Jedi and traditional ghosts.


"The force is strong in this one" is likely an observation of how Luke is flying, rather than any sense or figure of speech. Han might have observed something similar after he witnessed Luke block a training droid while blindfolded. Luke is likely dodging fire in his X-wing in a way that defies the normal operation of a fighter.


And Vader doesn't qualify why he must obey the Emperor. He just says that he 'must', not why. We have no idea what sort of coercion is at play, or even if it is basic loyalty for saving his life. It isn't implied to necessarily be a direct thrall to his power.

 

[KGeo777]

There is no dishonesty in how Luke, Leia and Vader were unaware their connection in SW.

Luke and Leia almost had a romantic relationship--that was one of the criticisms of ROTJ. Many people felt it was a cheap surprise twist that they were related.

Even the claim that Darth Vader was Luke's father was questioned because he was a murderer--he may have been lying for personal advantage.
That is why Luke has to ask Yoda for confirmation.

Was the Tarzan yell uttered by Chewbacca also good writing?

 

[BAYLOR]

Luke and Leia almost had a romantic relationship--that was one of the criticisms of ROTJ. Many people felt it was a cheap surprise twist that they were related.

Even the claim that Darth Vader was Luke's father was questioned because he was a murderer--he may have been lying for personal advantage.
That is why Luke has to ask Yoda for confirmation.

Was the Tarzan yell uttered by Chewbacca also good writing?

When Lucas did the first film there was no direct inference that Vader was in any way related to Luke . Obi Wan told Luke his father was betrayed and murdered by a young Jedi named Darth Vader . That there tells us that Vader was separate person altogether from Anakin . In an an earlier version of the story which was was adapted as Graphic novel, Vader was not Luke's father at.

 

[Swank]

Luke and Leia almost had a romantic relationship--that was one of the criticisms of ROTJ. Many people felt it was a cheap surprise twist that they were related.

Even the claim that Darth Vader was Luke's father was questioned because he was a murderer--he may have been lying for personal advantage.
That is why Luke has to ask Yoda for confirmation.

Questioned by who? Luke and the audience should be skeptical. However, it fits with the story given in SW.

Was the Tarzan yell uttered by Chewbacca also good writing?

No. Neither were multiple musical numbers and Ewoks in general. ROTJ is the beginning of the end as far as Lucas turning great filmmaking into schlock. ROTJ is not nearly as good as the prior films - it just isn't nearly as awful as everything after.

 

[Le Panda du Mal]

I prefer not to make a fuss about continuity. IMO it gets in the way of a good story more often than it benefits. I wish people nowadays wrote things more like folk tales or, say, Thomas Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur where contradictions and disjunctions abound and are passed over without comment.

 

[BAYLOR]

Questioned by who? Luke and the audience should be skeptical. However, it fits with the story given in SW.


No. Neither were multiple musical numbers and Ewoks in general. ROTJ is the beginning of the end as far as Lucas turning great filmmaking into schlock. ROTJ is not nearly as good as the prior films - it just isn't nearly as awful as everything after.

Lucas is no a particular good writer and never had any master plan for Star Wars. I think it likely that he didn't expect it to become the blockbuster that it did. After did hit , he had to scramble to come up with story ideas for Empire and Jedi. The main reason reason Empire is as good as it is because of the input and contribution of Leigh Brackett . As to Jedi , it would have been a better film had they dispensed with the Ewok completely.

As for Prequels , Lucas should come with story concepts and handed the writing over to Either Kevin J Anderson and Timothy Zahn and let them flesh out the storylines for the films. And he should have let some else handle the direction and production of those films.

 

[BAYLOR]

I prefer not to make a fuss about continuity. IMO it gets in the way of a good story more often than it benefits. I wish people nowadays wrote things more like folk tales or, say, Thomas Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur where contradictions and disjunctions abound and are passed over without comment.

Bad writing is bad writing.