What are Your Thoughts on Disney's Ownership of the Marvel And Star Wars Franchises ?

[paeng]

We need to avoid politics otherwise this thread topic is going to end up being locked .

The films are bad because the writing's bad: any humorous remarks fall flat, reveals are awkward, main storylines are rehashed, protagonists experience little internal conflict, and older actors are made banal or turned into caricatures. Change the actors and the results will be the same.

 

[paeng]

The first trilogy appeared during the start of the blockbusters, which is why they involved a lot of spectacle, and borrowed from older war, sci-fi, pirate, and samurai flicks. But development time was leisurely, so they had enough time to write properly, and followed Campbell. But because the target audience essentially consists of children, they had to make the dialogue simple so that the former could appreciate the movies.

They aspired for sophistication with the second trilogy, hoping to come up with some weird graft of '70s political thrillers and '60s adventure epics, but the result was flat.

By the third trilogy, they now needed to target a PG sweet spot and an international audience, many of whom were very young or not yet born when the earlier films came out, and had to produce quickly in order to avoid opportunity costs. So they rehashed storylines and characters (because younger audiences won't notice, and reused formulae worked before) and came up with a bewildering concoction of adventure, teenage dialogue, '70s political intrigue, comedic moments that fell flat, and '60s epic scenes that looked cartoonish, all within plots that had to be understood by viewers from different cultures and had to cram in as much spectacle and content in order to justify high ticket prices.

And the same thing happened to Marvel and other franchises.

Thus, Disney is expected to do the same for future movies. The catch is that at some point that audience will become like older ones, and will be tired of watching essentially the same thing in every new movie: too much sound and fury signifying nothing. And since there'll be too many to watch, they'll probably just wait for them to be available on streaming or even free streaming with or without ads (and will probably subscribe, binge-watch, and then unsubscribe), or in bargain bins.

 

[Swank]

That's certain, but I think the biggest problem's in the writing. That's why even if you get actors that fit that mold and of the same nationalities the films would still be awful.

I wasn't talking about the primary problem.

You can certainly say it is the writing, since that is pretty much how everything starts. But the dialogue in particular in Star Wars is pretty pathetic - and it's an incredible film.

 

[BAYLOR]

I wasn't talking about the primary problem.

You can certainly say it is the writing, since that is pretty much how everything starts. But the dialogue in particular in Star Wars is pretty pathetic - and it's an incredible film.

"I got a bad felling about this" Very lame stuff .

 

[Swank]

"I got a bad felling about this" Very lame stuff .

If you think that's bad, consider the dialogue in 2001.

These are not dialogue driven films. A little exposition, a little natural patter. That's all that's necessary. They aren't Mamet or Sorkin plays.

 

[paeng]

I wasn't talking about the primary problem.

You can certainly say it is the writing, since that is pretty much how everything starts. But the dialogue in particular in Star Wars is pretty pathetic - and it's an incredible film.

The dialogue is part of writing, and it's just one of many problems with the films.

 

[paeng]

If you think that's bad, consider the dialogue in 2001.

These are not dialogue driven films. A little exposition, a little natural patter. That's all that's necessary. They aren't Mamet or Sorkin plays.

They don't have to be Mamet plays or dialogue-driven to avoid being bad. They just need to be written correctly. In this case, the dialogue has to be written such that it looks natural rather than stilted, wooden, or awkward, and in some cases the actors have to step in and help. Here are a few points from main actors conccerning the earlier films:

And some examples, with some repeated points:

But again, that's just one problem. There are many more involving writing.

 

[paranoid marvin]

The original movies hardly had the greatest dialogue, but it suited the movies and that's all that really matters. I'm sure at times the likes of Sir Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing raised eyebrows at the lines they were given, but as consummate professionals they delivered them as though they believed in what they were saying.

Lines such as 'Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?" in Attack of the Clones was ill-chosen, poorly delivered and leaves the viewer wondering if it was meant to be comedy or foreshadowing.

 

[paeng]

I think the first trilogy was inspired by Republic serials, which means they're really meant for kids. The second was meant as some weird hybrid of the first trilogy, a political thriller, and a 1960s epic. The third was meant to target the PG sweet spot but involving an international audience that barely knew about the first two trilogies.

 

[Swank]

I think the first trilogy was inspired by Republic serials, which means they're really meant for kids.

Maybe someone thought they were meant for kids, but the first two films were adult.

 

[BAYLOR]

I think the first trilogy was inspired by Republic serials, which means they're really meant for kids. The second was meant as some weird hybrid of the first trilogy, a political thriller, and a 1960s epic. The third was meant to target the PG sweet spot but involving an international audience that barely knew about the first two trilogies.

That makes sense.

 

[BAYLOR]

The original movies hardly had the greatest dialogue, but it suited the movies and that's all that really matters. I'm sure at times the likes of Sir Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing raised eyebrows at the lines they were given, but as consummate professionals they delivered them as though they believed in what they were saying.

Lines such as 'Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?" in Attack of the Clones was ill-chosen, poorly delivered and leaves the viewer wondering if it was meant to be comedy or foreshadowing.

Having two actors of such stature as Peter Cushing and Sir Alex Guinness in Star Wars was a very a big deal and contributed to to the success of this film in no small measure. It also likely increased to the appeal of being in science fiction films for major actors.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Having two actors of such stature as Peter Cushing and Sir Alex Guinness in Star Wars was a very a big deal and contributed to to the success of this film in no small measure. It also likely increased to the appeal of being in science fiction films for major actors.

British actors seem to play a key part in the original trilogy, a lot seemingly with no little or movie experience but plenty of British tv shows, Michael 'Mr Bronson' Sheard being one of my favourites, but there are plenty of others

 

[Swank]

Having two actors of such stature as Peter Cushing and Sir Alex Guinness in Star Wars was a very a big deal and contributed to to the success of this film in no small measure. It also likely increased to the appeal of being in science fiction films for major actors.

I doubt Americans in 1978 had any idea who Peter Cushing was or had ever seen a Hammer film.

 

[AllanR]

I doubt Americans in 1978 had any idea who Peter Cushing was or had ever seen a Hammer film.

As a teen in Canada, Peter Cushing was the only name I really knew before the movie.
I leaned of Alex Guinness and his career afterward.

 

[paeng]

Guinness on Star Wars

 

[BAYLOR]

As a teen in Canada, Peter Cushing was the only name I really knew before the movie.
I leaned of Alex Guinness and his career afterward.

Because pop their association with Star Wars , they'll never be forgotten.

 

[KGeo777]

As a teen in Canada, Peter Cushing was the only name I really knew before the movie.
I leaned of Alex Guinness and his career afterward.

In Canada myself, I didn't know Guinness either.
Cushing I knew from horror movies and At the Earth's Core which I had seen the previous year.

There was a biography on Cushing and it pointed out that he is better known today than many more prominent UK actors of the era. Trevor Howard etc.
Cushing was a tv star in the 50s but by the 70s he was mainly known for B movies and he didn't like to travel so that limited his jobs.
He did make one movie in Canada though--The Uncanny, also 1977.

I think the prominence of British personnel in Hollywood productions in the 70s was partly because UK film production was dead basically and so they did some filming in England --but it was also a diversity quota thing.
Jaws had Robert Shaw, Star Wars had Guinnness and Cushing (and a number of others in supporting roles who were dubbed over), Halloween had Pleasence, Superman had a few as well.
They say it had to do with filming requirements--they had to employ certain people in country blah blah blah--I don't think so. They wanted someone from the UK to diversify the cast. Certainly the case with Jaws and Halloween which were shot in the US.

 

[HareBrain]

I think the prominence of British personnel in Hollywood productions in the 70s was partly because UK film production was dead basically and so they did some filming in England --but it was also a diversity quota thing.
Jaws had Robert Shaw, Star Wars had Guinnness and Cushing (and a number of others in supporting roles who were dubbed over), Halloween had Pleasence, Superman had a few as well.
They say it had to do with filming requirements--they had to employ certain people in country blah blah blah--I don't think so. They wanted someone from the UK to diversify the cast. Certainly the case with Jaws and Halloween which were shot in the US.

The number of British actors in Star Wars was purely because it was shot in London and they would have had to pay travel and accommodation for US actors, surely? It only made sense to do that for the leads.

As for Robert Shaw and Donald Pleasance, they were plenty well enough known to get roles without being hired to fulfil some weird "British quota". Unless you have a source for that?

 

[KGeo777]

The number of British actors in Star Wars was purely because it was shot in London and they would have had to pay travel and accommodation for US actors, surely? It only made sense to do that for the leads.

As for Robert Shaw and Donald Pleasance, they were plenty well enough known to get roles without being hired to fulfil some weird "British quota". Unless you have a source for that?

But they used unknowns for the leads. There was no box office value to the main cast so they used Guinness and Cushing for marquee value. But--they could have used a more prominent American--they had previously--there are lots of UK-made Hollywood films through the 60s and 70s where they brought over the American star or two.

John Wayne, Carol Lynley, Gregory Peck etc... granted--the budgets were smaller but since they were spending $8 million on it, they could have done it if they felt they needed something more for marketing it.

There were many American actors who they could have used instead of Shaw and Pleasence. I don't know if Lee Marvin turned Jaws down or was too expensive or was too famous to be opposite Scheider and Dreyfuss. Sterling Hayden was another contender. Hal Holbrook could have done Halloween. There was not shortage of US alternatives.
And the UK film industry was pretty much dead by 1977 so injecting UK presence into some films--especially ones that were going to be playing in the UK, made sense in order to give it some local appeal.
Michael Caine in Dressed to Kill for example. It's not set in England is it?

How many American films did David Warner show up in as the only English presence?
I don't think it comes down to "hey, we need an English accent in this."

There must be some strategic aspect to it--because it has been cranked up ever since.
Why did they choose an English actor for Superman or a Welsh one for Batman? An Australian actor for the Joker?
That's not accidental.
They did not want an American actor for them.

PS
There is a theory that the reason like using English accents in some things is because it lends an air of authority or seriousness.
I am not sure that is always true because I don't think Quint or Loomis would be regarded with the same seriousness if the parts were played by Terry-Thomas.