The Pilgrim's Progress as a possible influence on Lord of the Rings

[Extollager]

No doubt this has been discussed before somewhere, but has The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan been considered as an influence on The Lord of the Rings? I say this because The Pilgrim's Progress involves a journey across a huge fantasy land that mimics the good or evil of its inhabitants (the Slough of Despond, the Giant Despair and so on). While LOTR isn't that sort of direct allegory, I can't think of much pre-LOTR with that sense of bigness. Even the Arthur stories (from Mallory, at least) tend to concentrate on one knight and his adventures rather than making long journeys. Did Tolkien ever give any indication of this?

At least there may have been real though indirect influence on JRRT. It is likely that people today are oblivious of the way Bunyan's book once permeated the English imagination.*

I was looking at the booklet, by the way, that accompanies an early 1990s Hyperion CD of Ralph Vaughan Williams's The Pilgrim's Progress: A Bunyan Sequence. It notes RVW's almost lifelong preoccupation with Bunyan, from 1909 incidental music to 1951's opera of "morality" The Pilgrim's Progress, with the great 5th Symphony comes in between.

Illustrated editions would've been among the first books many youngsters pored over. Here's a page from Robert Lawson's.

*The shift in schools and universities from classic works to recent books dealing with topics highlighted by mass entertainment and journalism, and the stock-in-trade of bureaucrats and politicians, makes it increasingly likely that readers will not understand this. The past really does become for these readers an alien country, and their imaginations are thoroughly colonized by the contemporary promoters.

 

[The Big Peat]

No doubt this has been discussed before somewhere, but has The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan been considered as an influence on The Lord of the Rings? I say this because The Pilgrim's Progress involves a journey across a huge fantasy land that mimics the good or evil of its inhabitants (the Slough of Despond, the Giant Despair and so on). While LOTR isn't that sort of direct allegory, I can't think of much pre-LOTR with that sense of bigness. Even the Arthur stories (from Mallory, at least) tend to concentrate on one knight and his adventures rather than making long journeys. Did Tolkien ever give any indication of this?

Lindsay's Voyage to Arcturus definitely features an epic journey and that sort of mood-mirroring in the landscape, and Tolkien knew it well.

He also knew Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros and Morris' works well, and while they lack the same sense of land linked to mood, they have some big globetrotting stories.

I don't know how well he knew The Pilgrim's Progress - I'm not aware of him speaking on the matter. It would make sense as an inspiration, but there were definite immediately preceding fantastical works of a considerable size.

 

[Extollager]

Tolkien acknowledged the influence of Haggard's great romance She in a 1966 interview published in the fanzine Niekas, which may be read here:

Niekas 18 - Page 40

Classic Fanzine, Niekas 18, Page 40

fanac.org

The Sherd of Amenartas is the potsherd that has been passed down through many generations within Leo Vincey's family. It contains inscriptions in different languages and using different writing systems. Haggard had expert help in designing the sherd, which was represented in a frontispiece. You have here the "Tolkienian" combination of vast antiquity + philology + fantasy.

She : a history of adventure : Haggard, H. Rider (Henry Rider), 1856-1925 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The metadata below describe the original scanning. Follow the All Files: HTTP link in the View the book box to the left to find XML files that contain more...

archive.org

Tolkien speaks of the "machine" that got everything moving. The interviewer evidently didn't ask him to explain that remark. But I think Tolkien meant that Haggard had the idea of a written record (cf. the Red Book of Westmarch) that has provided people in our time with a glimpse of an ancient time -- NB not "another world" but our own world very long ago. The "machine" is a device that enables the story to get going.

What nails the influence of Haggard on Tolkien is the fact that in his earliest writings, Tolkien actually lifted Kôr (a place-name for a lost realm) from Haggard's romance.

Tolkien referred to the Sherd of Amenartas, in Haggard's She, as "the kind of machine by which everything got moving."

I've just run across an interesting remark by Tolkien, printed in The Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 26. In the first edition of The Fellowship of the Ring, Tolkien had playfully interwoven the idea of The Lord of the Rings as a record from the ancient past and the idea of the book as something he made up. After is publication, he wrote in a copy "This Foreword I should wish very much in any case to cancel. Confusing (as it does) real personal matters with the 'machinery' of the tale is a serious mistake."

In the context of fantastic fiction, Tolkien thus thought of the "machine" as a contrivance that accounts for the existence of the narrative as a document that exists in our world. The interviewer evidently failed to ask Tolkien for clarification, but it seems clear that Tolkien was saying he was intrigued by Haggard's idea of the inscribed potsherd that provided people in the author and readers' own time with a tangible connection with the ancient past, one whose most obvious characteristic aside from its physical properties of shape, etc., and its antiquity, was the multiple languages displayed. Again, you have here the "Tolkienian" combination of vast antiquity + philology + fantasy.

Bunyan has nothing much like this; the Pilgrim's story is represented as a dream at beginning and end. The dream, then, is the "machine" for the story. I'm very interested in the various "machines" Tolkien could have used but never seems to have considered, the ones he considered but rejected, and the one he did use.

Among the ones he never seems to have considered would be the drug that really does free a consciousness from the usual constraints of time and space. I don't know when it is that this idea first enters literature as something distinct from the idea of a "mere" drug-dream. Haggard wrote what I now think of as the "Taduki Trilogy," three Allan Quatermain romances in which the "Taduki weed" is involved and by which Allan receives what are understood as being true visions of the past. The novels are The Ivory Child, The Ancient Allan, and Allan and the Ice Gods, which I would not be surprised to learn had been read by Tolkien, but I see not the least suggestion that the drug idea ever appealed to him for his own writing.

I've written a lot here about Haggard, but there hasn't been much activity relating to the OP about Bunyan though I've tried to nudge that a little.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It's been a while since I read either of them so I may be remembering incorrectly, but it seems to me that Orlando Furioso and The Faerie Queen each had that sense of "bigness" and may be more likely candidates than Bunyan for influencing Tolkien in writing LOTR.

 

[BAYLOR]

Tolkien referred to the Sherd of Amenartas, in Haggard's She, as "the kind of machine by which everything got moving."

I've just run across an interesting remark by Tolkien, printed in The Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 26. In the first edition of The Fellowship of the Ring, Tolkien had playfully interwoven the idea of The Lord of the Rings as a record from the ancient past and the idea of the book as something he made up. After is publication, he wrote in a copy "This Foreword I should wish very much in any case to cancel. Confusing (as it does) real personal matters with the 'machinery' of the tale is a serious mistake."

In the context of fantastic fiction, Tolkien thus thought of the "machine" as a contrivance that accounts for the existence of the narrative as a document that exists in our world. The interviewer evidently failed to ask Tolkien for clarification, but it seems clear that Tolkien was saying he was intrigued by Haggard's idea of the inscribed potsherd that provided people in the author and readers' own time with a tangible connection with the ancient past, one whose most obvious characteristic aside from its physical properties of shape, etc., and its antiquity, was the multiple languages displayed. Again, you have here the "Tolkienian" combination of vast antiquity + philology + fantasy.

Bunyan has nothing much like this; the Pilgrim's story is represented as a dream at beginning and end. The dream, then, is the "machine" for the story. I'm very interested in the various "machines" Tolkien could have used but never seems to have considered, the ones he considered but rejected, and the one he did use.

Among the ones he never seems to have considered would be the drug that really does free a consciousness from the usual constraints of time and space. I don't know when it is that this idea first enters literature as something distinct from the idea of a "mere" drug-dream. Haggard wrote what I now think of as the "Taduki Trilogy," three Allan Quatermain romances in which the "Taduki weed" is involved and by which Allan receives what are understood as being true visions of the past. The novels are The Ivory Child, The Ancient Allan, and Allan and the Ice Gods, which I would not be surprised to learn had been read by Tolkien, but I see not the least suggestion that the drug idea ever appealed to him for his own writing.

I've written a lot here about Haggard, but there hasn't been much activity relating to the OP about Bunyan though I've tried to nudge that a little.

What about Book of the Three Dragon by Kenneth Morris ? Did JRR Tolkien read of know of this one ?

 

[Extollager]

I doubt Tolkien knew of the K. Morris book, Baylor. I don’t think it had a British edition.

Teresa, there’s something somewhere — a letter, I think, rather than a diary entry — in which C. S. Lewis records having talked with Tolkien about Spenser, with Tolkien not being enthusiastic about the “forms” — I think this may have meant the poetic structures of the Spenserian meter and stanza. I suppose Tolkien could’ve meant the use of allegory. I’ve much enjoyed the FQ but Tolkien doesn’t seem to have been a fan.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Baylor, since Morris's book was based on the Mabinogion and Tolkien repeatedly denied any Celtic influences on his writing (except in some of the languages) and said some very unflattering things about Celtic mythology in general, I doubt he would have read it, much less taken any inspirations from it.

Extollager, it would be interesting to find out whether it was just the poetic structures he objected to, or the content of the story as well. Though I daresay, like it or not, he was probably far more familiar with Spenser than with Kenneth Morris.

 

[Extollager]

Teresa, the Lewis remark was in his diary after all, 11 May 1926; Lewis "had a talk with" Tolkien after a gathering, and the only author mentioned in CSL's note of the conversation is Spenser: Tolkien "can't read Spenser because of the forms" (All My Road Before Me, p. 393). I can only guess what Lewis meant when he wrote "forms," but my guess is that poetic structures is meant. But I could see Tolkien finding several aspects of FQ as displeasing: its "mixture" of mythologies (as in the Narnian books), its use of (varying levels of) allegory, and its strong approval for the Reformation and its opposition to Roman Catholicism. The fact that Spenser was an author they discussed (possibly the only one they discussed) may indicate Lewis's own fondness for Spenser. But soon they would be getting together to read Icelandic sagas.

Baylor, Book of the Three Dragons was issued in the U. S. in 1930 by the Junior Literary Guild. It's unlikely that Tolkien -- or even the far better-read Lewis -- knew of it. I have a copy of the first edition, in terrible condition, a library discard.

 

[BAYLOR]

Teresa, the Lewis remark was in his diary after all, 11 May 1926; Lewis "had a talk with" Tolkien after a gathering, and the only author mentioned in CSL's note of the conversation is Spenser: Tolkien "can't read Spenser because of the forms" (All My Road Before Me, p. 393). I can only guess what Lewis meant when he wrote "forms," but my guess is that poetic structures is meant. But I could see Tolkien finding several aspects of FQ as displeasing: its "mixture" of mythologies (as in the Narnian books), its use of (varying levels of) allegory, and its strong approval for the Reformation and its opposition to Roman Catholicism. The fact that Spenser was an author they discussed (possibly the only one they discussed) may indicate Lewis's own fondness for Spenser. But soon they would be getting together to read Icelandic sagas.

Baylor, Book of the Three Dragons was issued in the U. S. in 1930 by the Junior Literary Guild. It's unlikely that Tolkien -- or even the far better-read Lewis -- knew of it. I have a copy of the first edition, in terrible condition, a library discard.

The edition of Morris's book that I have was published by Cold Spring Press . It's a wonderful book.

 

[Boaz]

I remember picking up the Pilgrims Progress at the library as a young 14 year old. I had just finished LOTR and thought this looks like another book in the same vein. It was the volume with the big colour prints. I was quickly disabused of that notion.

I was forced to read PP at the age of fourteen as part of the classics lit program. I loathed it! Fifteen years later, I had to read it as part of my graduate studies... and I loved it. Life experience provided understanding of settings and context that I did not possess in my teens.

Back on topic... I agree with @farntfar.

I do not claim to be any sort of a real artist, but I know that I cannot always pinpoint my inspirations when writing music. For example: Twenty years ago, I wrote a song called It's Over. The germ of the music came from listening to Led Zeppelin while driving my F150 over Green Mountain. The lyrics, regarding a broken romance, came straight from actual conversations. And the presentation of three spoken verses with a sung chorus came straight from Shawn Mullins' Lullaby. I was conscious of all these influences while developing the song. And if you'd asked me my influences, I'd have readily said what I've typed here....... BUT, last year I heard Gordon Lightfoot's If You Could Read my Mind (I had heard it a thousand times in the seventies, but had not listened to it for thirty years) and I was floored by the chords and the da da da da da da da da da at the end of the chorus compared to my song. Now, I perceive It's Over as much more inspired by Lightfoot than Zeppelin or Mullins.

I can see how people observe a similarity between PP and TLotR, but for now I'll have to take Tolkien's word that he was not influenced by Bunyan's allegory. And... just to be safe, when I get to heaven I'll ask him.

 

[farntfar]

And... just to be safe, when I get to heaven I'll ask him.

We assume that both you and Tolkien will have avoided all the snares set by Timorous, Apollyon, Despair and others in order to get there. (and also Boromir, Smeagol, Saruman etc of course)

 

[Boaz]

Mr. Legality and Ted Sandyman are big enough foes for me.

 

[Fjordavy]

I'm not saying it's "ripped off", just asking whether it's thought that there was an influence. Having influences doesn't diminish the quality of a book.

Don’t listen to that other guy. He seems to think asking about inspirations is the same as a movie claiming to be “inspired by” something, haha. You have a good ear. There are definitely echoes of Bunyan in LotR.

 

[BAYLOR]

Baylor, since Morris's book was based on the Mabinogion and Tolkien repeatedly denied any Celtic influences on his writing (except in some of the languages) and said some very unflattering things about Celtic mythology in general, I doubt he would have read it, much less taken any inspirations from it.

Extollager, it would be interesting to find out whether it was just the poetic structures he objected to, or the content of the story as well. Though I daresay, like it or not, he was probably far more familiar with Spenser than with Kenneth Morris.

Unflattering things about Celtic Mythology ? Unbelievable and very disappointing .

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

I know not.

However... C.S. Lewis wrote "The Pilgrim's Regress" (published 1933) soon after his conversion to Christianity (in which Tolkien had of course played a part) - described as "a philosophical allegory of the modern zeitgeist endued with themes that would prove to be characteristic of his writings — such as the quest for joy and a recognition of spiritual cosmic warfare between good and evil." (Apologies: I've lost the link to this).
Tolkien, despite his strong Roman Catholic upbringing, would almost certainly have read Bunyan, and would have been involved in discussion with Lewis over "The Pilgrim's Regress"

The Pilgrim's Regress - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For those looking for a copy. Find it here at Archive.org

 

[paeng]

I think he focused more on medieval lit, especially epics, and according to Shippey (probably) watered down the content to avoid references to sex and religion.