An eavesdropper listens (484 words)

[msstice]

I have not submitted anything for critique for quite a while, which is remiss of me. This is a snippet from the middle of a chapter somewhere in the middle of my novel in progress. I appreciate any comments you might have. I'm trying to improve my interiority, showing vs telling, dialog and just plain old story telling. This snippet does not have much opportunity for interiority though.

On the other side of the copse sat a group of people, lounging on the ground and on
crooked benches. Avni took up a surreptitious position within the copse, where she
could observe the group through the trunks.

An athletic young man cracked his knuckles carelessly. "I think the younger one
has royal blood."

"Zodi," said the oldest man in the group, shaking his head slowly, "none of us
have seen their authentication." He tapped the stick he carried meditatively on
the muddy soil. "But it is more likely the older one has royal blood."

Small smiles appeared on the faces of the others in the group.

"Behold," said a heavyset middle-aged man, "our champions have declared their
interests."

An older woman with white hair snickered.

The oldest man scowled. "Always with the quip, eh, Ron?"

An affectation of sadness spread across Ron's face as he looked at the old man.
"I'm afraid I have bad news for you, Ben."

Giggles slipped out from several of those gathered.

"Oh yes?" said Ben, looking dangerous.

"Yes. Sadly, even the older one is too young for you."

Zodi laughed the loudest at this, holding his sides and rocking back and forth.

The cane rose up and shook in the air. Ron put his palms together and raised
them above his head, looking away and bowing in mock submission to the impending
beating.

When a gap appeared in the laughter, Ron turned sorrowful eyes on Zodi and said,
"I'm afraid I have worse news for you."

Zodi stopped chuckling and stiffened.

"Sadly for you, it seems the younger one has already made her choice. It seems
our learned physician has come to her attention."

"Humph," said Zodi, "I have heard that idle gossip. A brave, restless warrior
like her, leaping down from the stars, fighting a lion with her bare hands. She,
choose a boring physician? I think not!"

"Zodi, my friend," said the woman with white hair, "I saw it with my own eyes,
as I helped FinSang tend to the visitors."

"Ah, Rita, tell that story again."

"Humph, I have no use for that story."

Rita squared her shoulders and sat up, conscious of her importance. "When
FinSang went to tend to her wounded friend, she captured FinSang with those
piercing brown eyes of hers."

A loud "Aah" went around the company.

"She drank him in, but critically, mind you, as you would expect from such a
shrewd warrior. Then, as is the custom of her people when studying a potential
mate, she checked his health by pinching his cheeks and twisting each of his
fingers one by one."

The members of the company received this story with thoughtful wonderment.

"Of course, FinSang balked when she tried to pry open his mouth to examine his
teeth, but by then I think she was quite taken by him."

 

[JS Wiig]

It seems to me that interjecting the eavesdropped conversation with some of Avni's feelings on what is being said could add some introspection, as well as shed some light on what Anvi is looking to learn from spying on this group.

 

[msstice]

It seems to me that interjecting the eavesdropped conversation with some of Avni's feelings on what is being said could add some introspection, as well as shed some light on what Anvi is looking to learn from spying on this group.

I love this idea. I worried however of breaking the flow of the conversation and ruining the effect for the reader (e.g. Action scene of clashing magic spells (745 words))

Perhaps I could have Avni have her own, internal, running commentary to the conversation, as if she's a participant (which in a way, she is).

 

[Aknot]

I’m not a native English so take the grammar comments with a grain of salt:

Overall, I like the flow, especially in the later two thirds of the text.
As said, hearing something what Avni thinks or feels could add some further depth. That said, in the context of a wider story it might be a moot point.
I suppose the formatting comes from copying text from your document but there seems to be a number of line breaks that disrupts the flow when reading. A small detail but helps.
Are benches crooked? Worn? Or worn and crooked? Just reads a bit odd but that might just be me.
Do you take up a surreptitious position within a copse or do you hide in a copse? Isn’t surreptitious more like “stealing a glance”?
A few repetitions of words within a short paragraph. Like copse.
Do people have small smiles? Sly smiles? Smirks? If derogatory, that is.

Keep up the good work!

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Me - picky person
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I have not submitted anything for critique for quite a while, which is remiss of me. This is a snippet from the middle of a chapter somewhere in the middle of my novel in progress. I appreciate any comments you might have. I'm trying to improve my interiority, showing vs telling, dialog and just plain old story telling. This snippet does not have much opportunity for interiority though.

On the other side of the copse sat a group of people, lounging on the ground and on
crooked benches (why crooked?). Avni took up a surreptitious position within the copse, where she
could observe the group through the trunks.

To me adding the crooked jarred and I went off wondering what the relevance was - I said I was picky.
surreptitious - given what she's up she's hardly likely to shout about it.
Through the trunks - sight not sound, plus - semi obvious.
Maybe mention the care in not snapping twigs and selecting a spot where shewas comfortable and can hear clearly- she's creeping about but I get no sense of it.

An athletic young man cracked his knuckles carelessly. "I think the younger one
has royal blood."

This again seems more like she's watching not evesdropping. To someone not actually seeing what when on it would be a strange cracking noise which she might thing was made by herself. maybe it should puzzle her so she it could dawn on her what the noise was. Why the need for the the speaker to crack his knuckles is unclear other than distracting in fill.

"Zodi," said the oldest man in the group, shaking his head slowly, "none of us
have seen their authentication." He tapped the stick he carried meditatively on
the muddy soil (noisy stuff this mud). "But it is more likely the older one has royal blood."

Small smiles appeared on the faces of the others in the group. (Sight - not sound and it's this all through the piece. You need to establish she gets to a position where she can watch and not be seen. IMO this would difficult in a through the trunks of a copse because for this level of detailed observation she really needs to be on the edge of it almost in the open. On another note there no mention of the talking of those that are facing away - It seems the speakers all formed a semi-circle for her facing the copse)

"Behold," said a heavyset middle-aged man, "our champions have declared their
interests."

An older woman with white hair snickered.

The oldest man scowled. "Always with the quip, eh, Ron?"

An affectation of sadness spread across Ron's face as he looked at the old man.
"I'm afraid I have bad news for you, Ben."

Giggles slipped out from several of those gathered.

"Oh yes?" said Ben, looking dangerous.

"Yes. Sadly, even the older one is too young for you."

Zodi laughed the loudest at this, holding his sides and rocking back and forth.

The cane rose up and shook in the air. Ron put his palms together and raised
them above his head, looking away and bowing in mock submission to the impending
beating.

When a gap appeared in the laughter, As/When the laughter died down, Ron turned sorrowful eyes on Zodi and said,
"I'm afraid I have worse news for you."

Zodi stopped chuckling and stiffened.

"Sadly for you, it seems the younger one has already made her choice. It seems
our learned physician has come to her attention." (it seems a lot)

"Humph," said Zodi, "I have heard that idle gossip. A brave, restless warrior
like her, leaping down from the stars, fighting a lion with her bare hands. She,
choose a boring physician? I think not!"

"Zodi, my friend," said the woman with white hair, "I saw it with my own eyes,
as I helped FinSang tend to the visitors."

"Ah, Rita, tell that story again."

"Humph, I have no use for that story."(who?)

Rita, wincing from the pain of her wounds, squared her shoulders and sat up, conscious of her importance. "When
FinSang went to tend to her wounded friend, she captured FinSang with those
piercing brown eyes of hers."

A loud "Aah" went around the company.

"She drank him in, but critically, mind you, as you would expect from such a
shrewd warrior. Then, as is the custom of her people when studying a potential
mate, she checked his health by pinching his cheeks and twisting each of his
fingers one by one." (I'm confused is the her relating what happened or is it happening now)

On hearing this The members of the company received this story considered it's implications. with thoughtful wonderment. - What is thoughtful wonderment?

"Of course, FinSang balked when she tried to pry open his mouth to examine his
teeth, but by then I think she was quite taken by him."

OK, I like the basic idea and in the main it's reads well from a dialogue view. It can be difficult to write a scene where so many speak and not confuse the reader - you did lose me once (above), but mostly it read well. I liked the multiple views expressed and I did get the feeling I was observing a group being overheard/observed. I think there's room for a bit more talk about the two girls physical appearance, as would be the norm even in these enlightened times where mentioning what a girl looks like is frowned upon. So if one had a face like a bag-of-nails/angel, surely, someone might point it out given, I assume, we're talking potential marriage.

As I mentioned in the text this isn't eavesdropping this is full on spying from concealment and establishing how this was able to be done in such detail needs to be established, because all the way through I kept thinking she would actually have to be within the group for the details mentioned. It might work if the group was in a clearing in the wood and the observer was able to move around it to see the various speakers. In this way you could add the danger/tension of being discovered in the careful adjusting of position. At the moment it's all too convenient - She plonks herself in the copse and watches as the cameras zoom in on the current speaker.

On the other hand even in this short piece you've established an intriguing story and I would like to see how it developes and the other aspects to the world/plot.

Hope I helped

Tein

 

[Toby Frost]

I've got two main thoughts apart from the formatting being a bit odd.

First, I agree with JS Wiig that it could be good for there to be more about Avni and her reactions. It would be powerful to cut to her being intrigued or horrified by what they say.

Second, I think there's slightly too much of the villains saying stuff that's useful to the reader. They seem very keen to give each other their names. I suppose that, if I listened in to a conversation, there would be quite a lot of useless back-and-forth, and bits that I couldn't hear properly, before they got to the meat of the discussion. Maybe you could mention this or throw in a few irrelevant comments ("Why can't we meet inside for a change?" or something like that).

In Mona Lisa Overdrive, William Gibson reported an overheard conversation as if it was a play, like this:

English man - "We need to do this soon."
American woman - "No, it's too risky" etc.

I think these kinds of overheard, half-understood scenes can be very sinister and powerful. I always liked the recording in H.P. Lovecraft's "The Whisperer in Darkness", which isn't quite the same as what you're doing, but is very atmospheric.

 

[paranoid marvin]

This was a good piece of writing. It makes the reader want to know more, which (imho) is the most important thing.

There are a couple of things I would suggest. Firstly, does she know this group of people? If they are all strangers, then it can be tricky dropping in names into the conversations and still making it realistic; however you still have to be practicable and know when to bend the laws of believability without breaking them. Yes , you can refer to them as 'the old one' , the 'strong-looking one' etc, but when you have a number speaking it can get a little wordy, when what really matters is what is being said. It may be worth considering name-dropping two or three, but leaving a couple (perhaps the 'white haired lady' nameless, especially if that character has a prominent role later (helping to build the intrigue as to who she is)

I would suggest that if she and they are in a copse, it is unlikely that she would remain unseen, especially when she is able to observe them. Unless she is in the branches of a tree, or in a hide, or some other contraption which is believable in the universe in which she resides. Also be careful to figure out how far away she is from the group as to how much details she can see.

For example

Small smiles appeared on the faces of the others in the group.

may be worth considering replacing 'small smiles' with' grins'? Much easier to observe. And rather than 'the others', which assumes she is able to see all their faces at the same time, simply 'others' , so


Grins appeared on the faces of others in the group.


Also be careful about observation and omniscience ; for me

An affectation of sadness spread across Ron's face

this is well written piece of observation


The members of the company received this story with thoughtful wonderment

Rita... conscious of her importance

these are omniscience . These can be easily tweaked though, so


Rita squared her shoulders and sat up, seemingly conscious of her importance.


Others have mentioned about having her thoughts intertwined amongst the conversation of the group. I think if you added her thoughts afterwards this would be fine, as you don't want to take the reader too much away from the conversation. Is she one of the two with 'royal blood they are talking about?'. You may want to comment on her 'cheeks flushing' as they talk about her.

I agree with TEIN that talk of the girl's appearance may crop into the conversation; however, discussing them just based on the attributes of their 'royal blood' could make them out to be cold, callous people (if that is the effect you are looking for).



These bear in mind that these are my comments more as a reader than a writer, but I do think that - even as you have written it - it is an intriguing piece of dialogue.

 

[msstice]

Thank you all for your very thoughtful comments. This is most, most helpful. Your reactions even gave me ideas for structuring the rest of the chapter, beyond this conversation.

 

[AnRoinnUltra]

Hello @msstice , thanks for that. I don't have too much to add as it worked well for me and , like was already mentioned, made for interesting reading. The last section might be worth breaking as it felt a bit too much for casual conversation:

She drank him in, but critically, mind you, as you would expect from such a
shrewd warrior. Then, as is the custom of her people when studying a potential
mate, she checked his health by pinching his cheeks and twisting each of his
fingers one by one

I think (and I'm no expert) that people generally drift off slightly every sentence or two '...as you'd expect for a shrewd warrior', might wander into 'you know the way those people are when they look for a mate, remember that one time when * and we all thought she was looking for gold fillings in his mouth'
Looking forward to seeing the finished story, fair play

 

[Christine Wheelwright]

I think in general less is often more (pardon the cliche). I tend to avoid being overly descriptive, unless the story is served in some way by the description. I may describe a character's suit of armour (its magnificence, quality, workmanship) if I intend the reader to understand that character's importance or wealth. It is a form of show-don't-tell. Frequently, however, I like to allow the reader to visualize a scene for themselves. Imagine, for example, two characters talking in a laboratory. I could go into detail about their clothes, the colours of the walls, the placement of the workbenches, test tubes, microscopes and so on. But, if none of that is especially important to the story, I simply allow the reader to imagine the room for him/her self. Won't it be more real to the reader that way? Similarly, not every action or section of dialogue has to be accompanied by a description. Rather than use the term 'she said sarcastically', I would prefer the reader to grasp that, simply from the words spoken. When descriptions are needed (and they often are...I am not proposing a minimalist approach), I would try to use stronger language. 'Small smiles' sounds a little weak. And the simpler word is often better/stronger ('thoughtfully' sounds better than 'meditatively', and the 'affectation of sadness' could be 'mock sadness').

Please don't be too discouraged by my criticism, because I'm quite the outlier, particularly in this genre. I do find many novels - even from renowned authors - to be somewhat overwritten.

 

[M.P. VandenBerg]

I've seen you give some solid advice on here and have been looking forward to reading some of your work. I have a hard time keeping so many characters straight when jumping into the middle of a story like this but I will do my best to give you my impressions;

1) Are they speaking in a kind of an accent? the lack of contractions and word use by the characters gives the impression of them being British or at least with a similar cadence.
2) I'm glad to see someone else use "double quotations," for dialogue. CANADA FTW.
3) Dialogue tags are solid. I can tell whos speaking without having every spoken sentence labelled.
4) I forgot by the end that this is supposed to be from Anvi's perspective. Maybe more introspective observations? I would like to know what she's thinking if I'm seeing things through her eyes.
5) "Zodi laughed the loudest at this, holding his sides and rocking back and forth." This does seem like an unrealistic reaction without more context.
6) "Then, as is the custom of her people when studying a potential mate, she checked his health by pinching his cheeks and twisting each of his
fingers one by one." I realize your story has well-spoken characters, but this sentence seems a bit too clinical to be part of an improvised story. More context could change my mind on that. (Character is known for storytelling and such)
7) People are naming each other quite a bit within the conversation. I would (You don't have to) drop names into actions. For example; he looked over to [insert name and more awesome wordplay] and said, "the same quote without saying the character name to them."

Very ambitious writing style. Is that what prose means? I'm not familiar with that term. Anyway, I get the sense you know what you're doing. Setting and body language are brought across subtly and clearly. The Character interactions seem realistic within the world. I'd say the weakest aspect of this, is trying to find an audience that can follow a more classic style.

Looking forward to more.

 

[Brian G Turner]

This strikes me as the sort of scene which could be compressed to a couple of sentences of "Avni had heard...". That allows you to keep everything immediate and focused on the character.

 

[msstice]

This strikes me as the sort of scene which could be compressed to a couple of sentences

Perhaps, but that would take all my fun out of it ...

 

[msstice]

Are they speaking in a kind of an accent?

There is something particular about their speech (the explanation is not in this passage). I'm glad it comes across as intelligible but different, though I'm not sure how I achieved that.

I forgot by the end that this is supposed to be from Anvi's perspective. Maybe more introspective observations?

Other's have pointed this out too. I am struggling to write some aspects of this character. I have one main character who is always thinking contrary thoughts but never saying what he really means, which is entertaining to write. Avni tends to observe for a long time, then at the end make a few direct, honest and insightful spoken observations. I need to insert more internal commentary throughout to develop her character.

rocking back and forth." This does seem like an unrealistic reaction

I have to check why. It seemed reasonable to me that the arrogant young man would have an extra laugh, a bit more than is polite or warranted, at the expense of the old man.

this sentence seems a bit too clinical to be part of an improvised story

I have to work on that then.

People are naming each other quite a bit within the conversation

@Toby Frost @paranoid marvin among others have noted this. I have to figure out a clever device to describe these minor characters.

Thank you (and indeed everyone) for this very insightful feedback that helps me to improve the story.

 

[Bowler1]

Hi Msstice

Ok, I'll be honest, I had problems with this.

There was no clear POV for me with emotion. It was telling, shaking of heads and other movements. It was outside looking on, instead of living a characters life, their feelings, their thoughts, breathing their world and living their life. It lacked engagement, and was a tad flat because of this. Instead of outside looking on, get into a character, become that character, take me the reader into a new world and hook me in. Make me invest in a character, care about that character and I'll read on. Get inside a characters skin, behind their eyeballs, get personal, get gritty, go deep, reveal in feelings and emotions and I'll read on with you to the end. But have distant and remote puppets, and I'm not interested... It's not real.

Go deep, enjoy... and so will I... your reader. Focus on being one character, hook the reader, that's why we read. Otherwise, we watch TV.

Control, clarity, concise... less can be more.

On the plus, your imagination and creativity are clearly there, you have what it takes to shine. You'll get there, of that I have no doubt.

Later buddy.

 

[msstice]

I've made a revision and posted it here Gossip (Revision, 1321 words)

I would normally come back to this next year, when I'm on draft 3 (yes, I write very slowly) but y'alls kind comments inspired me to work on it a bit earlier.

 

[M.P. VandenBerg]

(yes, I write very slowly) but y'alls kind comments inspired me to work on it a bit earlier.

This is why I'm on here.