NFTs

Status
Not open for further replies.
NFTs are, in my opinion, just another example of how bad—in a moral sense—crypto can be. Even without the possibility of laundering money (as postulated in the twitter chain above), and ignoring the usual problems with cryptocurrency (environmental impact of mining, lack of stability/regulation, etc.), there’s the very real fact that a lot of NFTs amount to art theft—a person with no relation to the original artist sells an NFT of a digital work, which does real harm to the artist because it drives down demand for the original work—meaning they can’t get as much for what they put actual time and effort into because. As far as I’ve seen, very few artists have actually benefited from NFTs—it’s far easier to find artists complaining that their work’s been stolen and how hostile the NFT markets are to them trying to take the stolen art down.

And what does the buyer get? Bragging rights, basically. They have no control over what they’ve bought; they just get to say they own it. Which, I mean, I can say I own the moon, print out a piece of paper saying I do, but would anybody take me seriously if I did? It’s not even selling the Brooklyn Bridge; it’s selling the address of the Brooklyn Bridge, with a lot of tech-based buzzwords to cover up the scam. I’d feel sorry for the buyers, if they weren’t being driven by their own gullibility and greed, and if there weren’t real people trying to make a living losing money from the theft.
 
NFTs are simply a matter of creating scarcity in cases where the manufacturing costs of a good is low (or in the case of digital media, near zero). It is the same principle as signed and numbered copies of an author's book are considered more valuable than mass produced copies.
 
creating scarcity

Scarcity overcome:

OIF.jpg
 
NFTs are simply a matter of creating scarcity in cases where the manufacturing costs of a good is low (or in the case of digital media, near zero). It is the same principle as signed and numbered copies of an author's book are considered more valuable than mass produced copies.
Near zero? Any decent work is going to take significant time and effort to make. That’s a cost, right there—the time spent making it could have been used doing something else (opportunity cost), and of course there’s the cost of learning how to make it (schooling, practice, etc) and getting the tools to make it (in the case of digital art, the software and computer equipment necessary). Yes, one can make theoretically infinite copies, but A) in practice, an infinite number of people aren’t going to want it, and B) most people are actually honest enough to pay a reasonable price for the work, even if there’s a way to get it for free—that’s why works that are pay-what-you-want still make money, and why artists can release music on YouTube and art on DeviantArt and still make money selling it.

Another point is that an author’s signature is something physically intrinsic to that copy of the book—the signature is part of that copy, and is (rather obviously) not present on non-signed books; a NFT version of a work is entirely identical to a non-NFT version—the only way to prove that yours is unique is to produce external documentation (electronic documentation, sure, but still external to the work itself). That’s a major and crucial difference between signed books and NFTs. It should also be pointed out that some signed books aren’t worth much—some authors will sign any damn copy they can get their hands on, and so there’s more signed books than people who want a signed book. (I’ve dabbled in bookselling, and it really is a letdown to find a signed book and find that it’s not worth any more than a non-signed copy.) Given that NFTs don’t have any difference between the NFT and non-NFT copies, that’s a rather more apt comparison, if we really want to compare books and NFTs.

In the end, NFTs make it harder to sell digital works—again, there’s a lot of art theft associated with them, and that drives the price down for the original work, meaning the artist gets less compensation for their time and effort. Glorious visions of artificial scarcity don’t help the artist who’s going broke because some jerk is stealing their work and selling it as NFTs. Even honest NFTs are worth less because of this—when there’s no way to distinguish between “documentation proving you own this from the real artist” and “documentation proving you own this from a con artist,” the value of any documentation is less.
 
In the end, NFTs make it harder to sell digital works
I believe that we may be making the same argument. I suggest that making something harder to sell is equivalent to creating a scarcity.

Regarding costs, I should have been more explicit, but I separate the cost of design from the cost of manufacture. I define the cost of design to be the cost and effort expended to create the first copy of an item, while the cost of manufacture to be the cost and effort to create subsequent copies. A great deal of cost, time, and effort goes into creating the first recording of a song. After it is recorded, the cost to duplicate it is extremely low as is the cost to distribute it. Free or very low cost copies of music are available to me via over the air radio, streaming services, and online audio and video broadcasts.

I agree that my analogy between an NFT and a signed book is imperfect, but I will argue that the increase in value for the book is not due to the book itself, but rather due to the signature and its scarcity. Likewise, the value associated associated with an NFT is not due to the item to which it is attached, but due to the scarcity of the digital code of the NFT.

The divergence in the cost for an initial copy and that of additional cost has been a long running problem, preceding the internet age. My intent is merely to show that there is some rationality behind the usage of NFTs.
 
I believe that we may be making the same argument. I suggest that making something harder to sell is equivalent to creating a scarcity.

Regarding costs, I should have been more explicit, but I separate the cost of design from the cost of manufacture. I define the cost of design to be the cost and effort expended to create the first copy of an item, while the cost of manufacture to be the cost and effort to create subsequent copies. A great deal of cost, time, and effort goes into creating the first recording of a song. After it is recorded, the cost to duplicate it is extremely low as is the cost to distribute it. Free or very low cost copies of music are available to me via over the air radio, streaming services, and online audio and video broadcasts.

I agree that my analogy between an NFT and a signed book is imperfect, but I will argue that the increase in value for the book is not due to the book itself, but rather due to the signature and its scarcity. Likewise, the value associated associated with an NFT is not due to the item to which it is attached, but due to the scarcity of the digital code of the NFT.

The divergence in the cost for an initial copy and that of additional cost has been a long running problem, preceding the internet age. My intent is merely to show that there is some rationality behind the usage of NFTs.
To an extent, we’re agreeing that it’s harder to sell, but where we diverge is that my perspective is that NFTs drive down the value of the original work and divert sales from the original work (which is a bad thing), you appear to be saying that NFTs make a particular copy of the work rarer and therefore more valuable (which is a good thing). As well, I have to consider the art theft aspect—from what I’ve seen, NFTs are proving a useful vessel for scammers to engage in art theft, profiting off of the artificial scarcity at the expense of the original artist—, which raises the question of the intrinsic value of NFTs in general—if you can’t tell whether an NFT was sold by the original artist or a scammer, then what good is the NFT?

There’s still a major difference between NFTs and signed books. While a signature is indeed the valuable part of the book, it’s still part of the book; you cannot remove it from the book without damaging the book. With NFTs, the value is associated with the blockchain proving its authenticity; without that, the NFT is just another digital image, and because it is not actually part of the NFT—the image is the same regardless of the blockchain or not—it can be quite easy to separate the NFT from the blockchain (simply transfer it to somebody else without recording it in the blockchain). A signed book is still a signed book, even if I don’t have a receipt!

(In fairness, what might be a more apt metaphor than signed books is antiques: a significant portion of the value of an antique is documentation proving its authenticity—most usually, sales receipts and documented inheritances going back to the original manufacturer, or at least that it’s an old item.* However, false documentation doesn’t become incorporated into the economic system and there’s significant difficulty in creating a fake antiquity (there have even been occasions where forgeries have been good enough that the forger gets recognised for their artistic merit—after all, you have to be a damn good artist to fool large numbers of people into thinking your paintings were done by, say, Peter Paul Rubens), whereas copying a digital work is easy, and with how blockchain works, you can’t easily revoke the NFT’s authentication—the blockchain would fall apart if you could.)

* You might recognise this documentation chain with antiquities as being the exact same thing as a blockchain, but on paper. It’s not common outside antiquities, because most things don’t need a blockchain; people generally don’t care about the history of the money they got paid beyond their immediate employer or the pedigree of the used toaster they got from Ebay. It’s only when the value comes from the history—or when there’s a lot of buzzwords and memes obscuring the fact that it’s just another wheel, but, like, online, man—that it actually matters.
 
To an extent, we’re agreeing that it’s harder to sell, but where we diverge is that my perspective is that NFTs drive down the value of the original work and divert sales from the original work (which is a bad thing), you appear to be saying that NFTs make a particular copy of the work rarer and therefore more valuable (which is a good thing).
The optimization of aggregate price is the rationale behind the supply-demand theory. If one reduces the supply, then the individual item price will increase. After a point, the decrease in quantity of items offsets the increase in price and the aggregate declines. This is at odds with the assertion that restricting availability of a few copies of a good reduces the price of the remaining copies of the good. Furthermore, the challenge with digital goods is that the cost to reproduce them is essentially zero.

I agree that the signed book analogy is imperfect, but I suggest the following thought experiment. Assume that there is a signed book that is considered valuable enough to go to auction. Suppose that the auction house removes the signed page from the book and auctions off the book and the signed page separately. Which would command the higher selling price? Would the individual selling prices be any where near comparable?
 
The optimization of aggregate price is the rationale behind the supply-demand theory. If one reduces the supply, then the individual item price will increase. After a point, the decrease in quantity of items offsets the increase in price and the aggregate declines. This is at odds with the assertion that restricting availability of a few copies of a good reduces the price of the remaining copies of the good. Furthermore, the challenge with digital goods is that the cost to reproduce them is essentially zero.

I agree that the signed book analogy is imperfect, but I suggest the following thought experiment. Assume that there is a signed book that is considered valuable enough to go to auction. Suppose that the auction house removes the signed page from the book and auctions off the book and the signed page separately. Which would command the higher selling price? Would the individual selling prices be any where near comparable?
Neither book nor page would sell as high as they would have together. The book is damaged goods, and no collector will want it—quite possibly nobody will want it, if there are undamaged copies available (seriously, if I come upon a book missing a page while I’m looking at books to sell, I don’t even bother to list it—even if it’s otherwise As New, that missing page downgrades it all the way to Poor condition, and unless you’re selling a lot of used books (enough to make money off of the quantity you’re selling), it’s just not worth selling); the signed page was part of the book, and while still somewhat valuable, its value is diminished—it is only as valuable as any other signature of the author. Most collectors will want a signed book, not just a signature; it would only be the few really big fans of the author in question that would want the signature alone—and for most authors, there aren’t enough fans of that calibre to justify anything near the price of the signed book. The value has been damaged by the dissociation. The digital work is as valuable when dissociated from the blockchain as it would have been never having been dissociated; the same is not true for a damaged book. At any rate, the signed book metaphor isn’t important; this is:

The profit from an NFT which has been stolen from the original artist is not going to the original artist. They see not a penny of it. People who might have bought a copy of the original from them can be distracted by the NFT and not realise they’re paying for a stolen good; and the person selling the NFT has no reason not to sell as many copies of it as they can—after all, if it stops paying out, they can just steal something else. The original artist loses out, even if in aggregate more money is being made from the work, because they have fewer people buying what they’re actually selling, the lower demand means lower prices, so they get less for what they do sell, and of course they’re not getting anything for what the thief is selling. And because NFTs are unregulated, because there are no consequences for stealing art in this manner, they have proven a very good vehicle for digital art theft—enough that it’s becoming a problem for the actual artists actually making the art.

It also becomes a problem for honest NFTs sold by the real artists, because there is no way to tell the difference between an NFT sold by the original artist, and an NFT sold by an art thief—not without already knowing it’s been stolen from an outside source. An author’s signature can be judged, on its own merits, and determined whether it’s authentic or not. The same cannot be said for a blockchain. The part of the value of the NFT which lies in the certification that it is indeed a unique piece from the original artist is less, because it does not truly test for whether it is a unique piece from the original artist—all it will tell you is that it was sold on the blockchain. Therein lies the inherent flaw in the system.

In short, the problem is the art theft, not just that the artist isn’t going to make as much selling elsewhere; the problem is that many artists are finding somebody else selling their art, and are understandably and justifiably upset by it; the problem is that the blockchain says nothing about the legitimacy of the seller, only the manner of sale; the problem is that as the theft goes unchecked, honest NFTs become worth less than they otherwise would be; the problem is that NFTs are far too susceptible a vehicle for thieves and con artists out to make a quick buck, so that the NFT market must, inevitably, be destroyed by them. That is the the problem with NFTs, and I can see no solution that will not destroy every distinction between NFT markets and other online markets for digital art, or conflict too much with the profits of the NFT markets to be attempted before it is too late.
 
I agree that damage to the book distorts my initial example, so let me restate and refocus on the concern that an NFT reduces demand and value for products.

Let's assume a bookseller who has two copies of a book. One day the author comes by and signs one of the books in pencil. Does the bookseller lower the price on the unsigned book? Does the bookseller increase the price on the signed book? Note that the answers may be somewhat skewed depending upon whether the author is famous or obscure.

Sometime later, let's assume that the bookseller takes the signed book and very carefully erases the signature without otherwise damaging the book. Does the bookseller now raise the price on the originally unsigned book? Does the bookseller reduce the price on the previously signed book?

The assumption is that the price the bookseller assigns is reflective of the demand for the books to be sold. As the veracity of that assumption would lead the discussion in a far different direction, I ask that we leave it unchallenged for now and focus on the changes in perceived value.
 
I agree that damage to the book distorts my initial example, so let me restate and refocus on the concern that an NFT reduces demand and value for products.

Let's assume a bookseller who has two copies of a book. One day the author comes by and signs one of the books in pencil. Does the bookseller lower the price on the unsigned book? Does the bookseller increase the price on the signed book? Note that the answers may be somewhat skewed depending upon whether the author is famous or obscure.

Sometime later, let's assume that the bookseller takes the signed book and very carefully erases the signature without otherwise damaging the book. Does the bookseller now raise the price on the originally unsigned book? Does the bookseller reduce the price on the previously signed book?

The assumption is that the price the bookseller assigns is reflective of the demand for the books to be sold. As the veracity of that assumption would lead the discussion in a far different direction, I ask that we leave it unchallenged for now and focus on the changes in perceived value.
Suppose that the bookseller steals his books directly from the publisher, so that he doesn’t pay a penny to anyone involved in making them, and he forges the author’s signature on every book he sells. When the bookseller argues that more money is being made from the books overall, so he did a good thing and committed no crime, how long is the judge going to be laughing at him before she throws the book at him?

Let’s drop the book metaphor; it’s not leading us anywhere useful, and it’s distracting from the issue at stake. I do accept, and have never denied, your economic arguments as being true in theory; but as has been proved so often, practice is the enemy of theory. In this case:

In short, the problem is the art theft, not just that the artist isn’t going to make as much selling elsewhere; the problem is that many artists are finding somebody else selling their art, and are understandably and justifiably upset by it; the problem is that the blockchain says nothing about the legitimacy of the seller, only the manner of sale; the problem is that as the theft goes unchecked, honest NFTs become worth less than they otherwise would be; the problem is that NFTs are far too susceptible a vehicle for thieves and con artists out to make a quick buck, so that the NFT market must, inevitably, be destroyed by them. That is the the problem with NFTs, and I can see no solution that will not destroy every distinction between NFT markets and other online markets for digital art, or conflict too much with the profits of the NFT markets to be attempted before it is too late.

It is my belief that the art theft aspect is significant enough to override the economic arguments; all of your arguments have assumed that the only people selling are the people who have the right to sell a particular item. If this were the case, then—apart from the usual problems with cryptocurrency, which is a whole other discussion—then NFTs would, indeed, be a good thing. But it isn’t the case, and you have to take that reality into account.

Because NFT markets are unregulated, there are no consequences for selling stolen art as NFTs.

Because there are no consequences for selling stolen art as NFTs, digital art thieves regularly use NFT markets to sell their stolen art at an inflated price.

Because digital art thieves regularly use NFT markets to sell their stolen art at an inflated price, the artists are losing out.

Somebody else is profiting off of their work; somebody else is selling the work they have created without compensating the artist; the artist does not profit from this (because the artist is not the one selling the work, nor are they getting any compensation for it), and potential customers are drawn away from the markets they do profit from, because the people who buy NFTs are probably not going to buy a non-NFT version of the same work as well. This is a bad thing. It doesn’t matter if more money is being made off of the work overall, when the lion’s share of the money goes to a thief.
 
I have to agree with @Artoriarius on the art theft issue. I've been hearing ever increasing complaints about this on a number of sites from other artists and, to make matters worse, the NFT sites (OpenSea in particular) are making it increasingly difficult for artists to get their work removed from the site. A simple DMCA used to be all that was needed, but now they are doxing the real artists to the art thieves as they send them all your personal information when you issue a take-down notice, plus, are requiring the artists to send them links to multiple sites to prove that they indeed are the artist. OpenSea is even trying to shift the blame to sites like DeviantArt for the art theft and away from themselves for not being more careful to prevent it.
 
I can appreciate the technology and the uses it might have behind NFTs but who would pay $3000 for a "Bored Ape"?
Let alone $300,000!
Bored Ape has jumped the shark this week

I predict the imminent demise of the Bored Ape Yacht Club
 
"a person with no relation to the original artist sells an NFT of a digital work, which does real harm to the artist because it drives down demand for the original work"

Left to its own devices, the internet drives down the sale value of the original owner's original work. That's probably some form of digital entropy. For those able to use the fruits of other people's labors, it is priceless. If you want something to maintain its value you need to put work into the item to keep it visible on the web, otherwise it sinks out of sight. Fortunately, in the digital world, one can make fake currency to fuel the cost of maintaining popularity, because its all fake.

That is how digital theft works for everything. Its not just nfts that are created from stolen artwork. In the digital world, if its not nailed down then it is free to take.

What is on the web is not the material item, it is a digital copy. The digital world digitally devalues everything so the item has no fixed value, so anything can become worthless, or worth millions, if not billions.

"10,000 unique images" You get a program where the picture is divided up into sections and by simply choosing a different color for each section you get a unique image. With a few deft keystrokes you can easily generate thousands of digitally unique images. The digital world is supposed to make everything on it easily available to anyone under any circumstances. It was designed to distribute information, not to lock it up. Anyone thinking that the web is a good place to hide something or to just keep it secure is just fooling themselves. You put something on the web its going to get used if someone needs to use it.
 
"a person with no relation to the original artist sells an NFT of a digital work, which does real harm to the artist because it drives down demand for the original work"

Left to its own devices, the internet drives down the sale value of the original owner's original work. That's probably some form of digital entropy. For those able to use the fruits of other people's labors, it is priceless. If you want something to maintain its value you need to put work into the item to keep it visible on the web, otherwise it sinks out of sight. Fortunately, in the digital world, one can make fake currency to fuel the cost of maintaining popularity, because its all fake.

That is how digital theft works for everything. Its not just nfts that are created from stolen artwork. In the digital world, if its not nailed down then it is free to take.

What is on the web is not the material item, it is a digital copy. The digital world digitally devalues everything so the item has no fixed value, so anything can become worthless, or worth millions, if not billions.

"10,000 unique images" You get a program where the picture is divided up into sections and by simply choosing a different color for each section you get a unique image. With a few deft keystrokes you can easily generate thousands of digitally unique images. The digital world is supposed to make everything on it easily available to anyone under any circumstances. It was designed to distribute information, not to lock it up. Anyone thinking that the web is a good place to hide something or to just keep it secure is just fooling themselves. You put something on the web its going to get used if someone needs to use it.
"Left to its own devices, the internet drives down the sale value of the original owner's original work."

Almost every good loses value over time; apart from a few cases, such as antiques, where the age of the item is part of the selling point, the value always goes down over time. This isn’t something unique to digital goods, and it isn’t an argument for theft being okay—try telling a judge that it’s okay you stole that car, because it would’ve been worthless in a hundred years. That’s not going to convince them to let you go, will it?

Nor would it be a good argument that cars get stolen all the time—because, while that’s true, it’s still considered morally wrong and the culprits are still punished when they get caught. In the same way, the frequency of digital theft has nothing whatsoever to do with the ethics of it, nor whether we should ignore it. Theft is almost always bad, and we shouldn’t ignore a problem just because it’s a common one.

"It was designed to distribute information, not to lock it up. Anyone thinking that the web is a good place to hide something or to just keep it secure is just fooling themselves. You put something on the web its going to get used if someone needs to use it."

"Information wants to be free" has been used far too often to run roughshod over the rights of creators—with all due respect, this isn’t about keeping things secret or secure, it’s about making sure the people who put in the actual work are the ones to profit; and if the system isn’t designed to allow that, then that is a flaw in the system, not a bonus.
 
and if the system isn’t designed to allow that, then that is a flaw in the system, not a bonus.
It was built to be an emergency alert/communications system for use in the event of catastrophic collapse of ordinary communication systems, such as the old fashioned mechanical dial phone which was dependent on a straight through connection. The data is divided up into packets which allow the packets to arrive in any order via different routes and still recombine into the original document.

When the web first came out it was loaded with websites that contained all kinds of information, like a giant library. Websites were ranked in search order by popularity, ease of use, relevant content. It was great if you wanted to look something up.

And then one day, I was searching for some information on Shakespeare and mixed in with the legitimate useful results (people were publishing facts not bull-s***) the question kept popping up, "How many Shakespeares did I want to purchase?"

Soon after that some jackass got the brilliant idea and probably a big raise, lets make people pay to get a good ranking in the search result lists. This allowed any old kind of garbage to have top rank order. The web went from library to garbage dump with the highest payer getting the best search placement.

It was never designed to handle the amount of information that it is handling today. It might have worked if it stayed as a library and another web was built for commerce but it was too tempting to use the same equipment, the same lines, and let it all wash together. Without some kind of system to verify legitimate sources of information from pure trash, even the plain old information became corrupt. Databases were very popular back then, and there was a very useful slogan, garbage in, garbage out. Which meant once a data base got garbage characters in it, it became corrupted and had to be rebuilt to get the garbage out.

We always like to use things for purposes other than what they were designed for. It can save a lot of time and money. Sometimes the new use works out okay, sometimes it doesn't. The bottom line is that if we want to play in a garbage dump, we should expect to get dirty.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
G Book Discussion 8

Similar threads


Back
Top