Pro-Immortality science fiction?

[Dave]

I didn’t mean to come off as dismissive of religious texts .If you want to mention science fiction with a religious bent to it bring it on, no problem with that.

Well we don't discuss "Religion" on these forums because it is divisive. However, religious immortality themes within science fiction (both in books and other media) are extremely common, and I've mostly seen them appear in a 'pro-immortality' way. Surely A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller Jr. counts?

Even the big TV sci-fi franchises like Star Trek and Stargate have had characters who become "pure energy" or who "ascended" and this afterlife state was promoted as a very good thing to do and as something to aspire towards.

 

[Immortality]

Understood, I can see how religion would be problematic on a forum. But if someone wants to personally message me something religious that’s related to pro-immortality that’s ok, I believe that’s allowed.

Thanks for the recommendation (-:

 

[Immortality]

hitmouse : An Alien Heat by Michael Moorcock

I noticed this is part of an on going series too. So I was wondering is it just the first book in the series that is pro-immortality or does the entire series cover this subject? I only ask because I wonder if I should buy the first one , or the entire series. You can buy it separately or together, so I was wondering if the whole series contains the pro-immortality subject?

Thanks

 

[Immortality]

Sorry for the posts being all lined up like this, I know it’s against the rules. I will stop, sorry. I’m just kind of autistic so I mess up sometimes.

Have you ever seen that Disney film ‘Tomorrowland’ with George Clooney ? Well, you know the Tomorrowland she catches a glimpse of? That is EXACTLY what I’m trying to zero in on.

If you have not seen the film.

SPOILER ALERT !!! :

You see that seems exactly like the kind of society that would be completely ok with, and in fact encourage immortality. So if the fiction you mentioned is at least sort of like that, then that’s exactly what I’m looking for. So if you know fiction, fantasy ( Or ultimately any genre really ) that has a positive outlook on immortality then that’s what I’m trying to get at. I’m not sure if I was clear when I started the thread. It can’t be negative or conflictive, it must have a positive outlook of immortality. The only book I found so far in that vein was the one I mentioned, that’s it. Robert Heinlein’s Howard families is like that too.

 

[hitmouse]

hitmouse : An Alien Heat by Michael Moorcock

I noticed this is part of an on going series too. So I was wondering is it just the first book in the series that is pro-immortality or does the entire series cover this subject? I only ask because I wonder if I should buy the first one , or the entire series. You can buy it separately or together, so I was wondering if the whole series contains the pro-immortality subject?

Thanks

It is the first part of a trilogy. I suspect they might come bundled as a single package now, as with lots of Moorcock’s old stuff, but individual volumes are certainly available on ebay etc. There is also a short story collection and a fourth novel in the series.

However: the first novel is probably the main one to interest you. It is about an ancient society where everyone is immortal and everyone has more or less unlimited powers to instantly indulge their desires.

Not specifically pro- immortality, but an interesting exercise into what what individuals and society would look like in those circumstances. Great SF.

 

[Immortality]

It looks like I made an error with my last post above, I did not hit the save button so I don’t know why it’s there. You can delete it moderators if you want, in fact I want you to. This is the same post, but this is the one I intended to write, the one above I wasn't even finished with, so there must of been some error. If I did post it, it was purely accidental.

I know this post is long, but I just made it long so I don’t have to write anymore posts about what I mean. I apologize about the length of the thread, it won’t happen again. I dont think I made myself clear , but I think I make myself very clear here about what I mean about pro-immortality and why it has taken me years to try to find books that are actually 100% pro-immortality, most books touch on the ‘subject of immortality’ but the author is either anti-immortality, or just uses immortality as a plot device, but ultimately isn’t what the book or books are about.

Sorry, very, very sorry for my posts being lined up like this, I know it’s against the rules, sorry. It won’t happen again, if it does you can lock the thread. I’m autistic and mess up sometimes, as well as make dumb mistakes often, I tend to drift and get off topic and do weird things, I’m not dumb, I just do dumb things. I have average intellect...I hate being autistic!!! I wish I was super high functioning and had aspbergers like Mark Zuckerberg...lucky you Zuckerberg for hitting the genetic lottery ( fun fact: he loved the Culture series too. I think he called them genius, are they really that good? ) The entire series, that’s a lot of reading that’s why I never read them because a part of me thinks that they will have a negative outlook on immortality and it would not be pro-immortality at all, that ultimately the author intended the book to be pro-death, and definitely not pro-immortal. That’s why I never start these immortality books, except the ‘The Transhumanist Wager’ because I knew 100% before I read it that it was going to be pro-immortality, with all other science fiction,fantasy, etc., I just don’t know because there isn’t much information on the books in the form of a wiki article or people’s reviews don’t focus on the pro-immortality of the book in their reviews they tend to focus more on other things, probably because all these reviewers are pro-death too, so they don’t touch upon the immortality in their reviews. This is why it has taken me two to three years trying to find pro-immortality science fiction(or any fiction) because I DONT THINK THEY EXIST . There is fiction out there that may be about the “subject of immortality” , but that doesn’t mean it’s going to have a positive outlook on it. I would gladly read all the books you recommended if they are pro-immortality in some way. Heinlein’s Lazarus Long and the Howard families, only two books now if you include the other one I mentioned, I feel are like this , but all the others will eventually let me down somewhere in the book, there is always some passage that tells me ok this author is definitely anti-immortality, and then I close the book and stop reading, there is always that TELL in these immortality books that gives the author away and I don’t want to read the author unless he or she is pro-immortality, like me. So I need a book with no tells, just a fictional book with a POSITIVE outlook on immortality. All of them seem , eventually when I’m reading them , to let me down because I can tell through the authors tells that he is anti-immortality and therefore so are one or more of the characters.

+Ultimately the book MUST have a positive outlook on immortality,so thus be pro-immortality,that’s what I’m looking for.+

Ok, so let’s really get down to brass tacks here. I’m going to try and ‘zero in on’ what I was really trying to say at the beginning of the thread, but which I think I failed you all. That’s my fault, sorry.

So let’s begin, have you ever seen the Disney film ‘Tomorrowland’ with George Clooney? Well, you know the Tomorrowland she catches a glimpse of ? That is EXACTLY what I’m trying to ‘zero in on’ here. Like ‘The Transhumanist Wager’ by Zoltan Istvan ( ha..that name always gets me, it’s like he is an alien and that’s his alien name) Anyways ....... “Praise Zoltan!!!”

If you have not seen the film.

SPOILER ALERT !!! SPOILER ALERT!!!

You see ‘Tomorrowlandk is EXACTLY the kind of society that would be completely ok with, and in fact will encourage the scientists to strive for immortality and the people will support it, because it’s part of ‘Tommorlands’ ethos. So if the fiction you mentioned is at least sort of like that, then that’s exactly what I’m looking for. If you know fiction, fantasy ( Or ultimately any genre really ) that has a positive outlook on immortality then that’s what I’m trying to get at ,100% what I’m looking for. I’m not sure if I was clear when I started the thread, but I am now. Ultimately the books you recommend MUST have a positive outlook of immortality. There can be conflict in the story, etc. but in the end the book as a whole MUST have a positive outlook on immortality. Which would mean the author therefore probably has a positive outlook on immortality him or herself, which is the case with Zoltan Istvan, I’m not sure if Robert Heinlein was actually pro-immortality. Think of it this way , I want to be immortal myself so the science fiction, fantasy, etc., etc. must reflect that desire. If it has a positive outlook on immortality I would definitely read it. The only book I found so far in that vein was the one I mentioned, that’s it. Well, Robert Heinlein’s Howard families is like that too, sort of ,there is some talk about you must be rich to be immortal, but later on however as I recall they did give the human race the chance to have the secret to their immortality, but ultimately the humans didn’t like the idea in ‘Time Enough for Love’ so they had to leave earth, lol. I read it as a youngster so I cant recall if Heinlein's Howard Families and Lazarus Long ultimately had a positive outlook on immortality? Did they? I recall ‘Methuselah Children’ much better, and I believe that was ultimately positive in its outlook towards immortality, so I think perhaps Heinlein himself wanted to be immortal, if not then what I read I grossly misinterpreted.

Thanks

 

[Rodders]

What about The Man From Earth?

Admittedly, it's a movie, but it does discuss immortality at length. It's an interesting film, to say the least.

 

[Immortality]

Great recommendation. I saw it, it was a fantastic sleeper hit. And it made me realize I have to add something else to my criteria so people can make more focused recommendations for me, which I’m loving by the way. This is my favorite subject in the world, living forever. This film made me think and change my criteria for recommendations on pro-immortality films, television and books. I now add films and television programs to my recommendations since many of your recommendations were great pro-immortality and neutral immortality shows and films. My change :

It must be positive towards the subject of immortality. I still want my films/tv/books recommendations to be positive pro-immortality in nature. However, here I will now change my criteria a bit because I forgot about this film. This film was neither negative or positive about immortality, it just presents the subject of immortality and you must decide what to think of it. So I now change my criteria from it must absolutely be positive about pro-immortality ( I still want them to be positive towards pro-immortality ) but it can now just be a neutral story of immortality, neither positive or negative. So the director or author just presents immortality to you and the watcher or reader must decide if he is going to be pro-immortality or want to remain mortal. For example, when I watched this film since I was pro-immortal at the time, after watching the film it just made my stance on being pro-immortality even stronger. So 1) film, television and book recommendations can be neutral about immortality, but I still prefer if they are positive towards pro-immortality, but either one if fine. It just can’t be negative about pro-immortality.

That’s it, I think I have completely pinpointed what I’m looking for, which should make your recommendations easier, since I narrowed it down . Or harder, like I said I don’t believe there are very many pro-immortality films, tv, or books out their. However, there might be some just neutral immortality stories out there. I love short stories too so if you have a recommendation, go for it. There are great anthologies on immortality too, but when I read the reviews or the short blurbs about the stories I found them all to be negative towards the subject of immortality in some way. But there may be an anthology that has the stories I’m looking for, I just haven’t found it myself yet.

 

[Immortality]

Sorry tried to edit the above post but ran out of time, I had to go back to work, lol.

Anyway take this. Anthology by the way , it looks fantastic doesn’t it surely there’s got to be one pro-immortality story in it , guess what I bought it and what a waste all the stories are anti-immortality. For the love of god, help me find , some positive/neutral pro-immortality books, tv, or films. I can’t find anything. I think the reason we all together found so little is because all those books somewhere have something negative to say about immortality, still I’ll buy them anyway. But worn me if you think the books you recommended don’t fit my new criteria:

1) Must have a positive outlook on pro-immortality ( or just a neutral or impartial outlook on the subject of immortality ).

That’s it that’s all I’m looking for and if you can find it in the form of films, television, or books please let me know I will be eternally ( haha ) grateful and happy for the recommendations.

Thanks so very, very much. Just the thought of finding another book, or collection of short stories based on that one criteria ( Which is found in ‘The Transhumanist Wager’ , ‘Methuselahs Children’ and the film ‘The Man From Earth’ makes me so happy.) really makes me excited and I can’t wait to see if any other members of this ,or the members who have posted already, posting some other recommendation just brings me joy. This is really important to me finding books with my set criteria, mentioned above after 1)

 

[Immortality]

If anyone sees the film ‘Tomorrowland’ with George Clooney and some little girl who I don’t know the name of, let me know what you think of their techno-utopian society. It’s a fun guilty pleasure and worth watching at least once, plus it tackles some issues I would like to discuss related to immortality and other cool future stuff. I was really vague here, I didn’t spoil a thing. Everything I said is in the ‘Tomorrowland’ trailer on YouTube, but I would like to talk more about it and go deeper into it. So hopefully you will check it out if you got so free time on a weekend or something. Peace

 

[Rodders]

Iain M. Banks's "Hydrogen Sonata" is loosely based around a character that has lived since the initial forming of The Culture, so he is perhaps 11 thousand years old. Not Banks's best work, but still excellent.

Neal Asher's Polity books have technically immortal characters, but immortality doesn't form a major part of his stories as far as i can remember. He does mention the "Ennui Barrier" a lot. (after about 200 years, humans tend to experience most things and literally get bored with living and tend to suicide.)

What about the Altered Carbon books? Not immortal as such, but cortical stacks enable your consciousness to be digitally stored and uploaded into other bodies (sleeves).

I think the most positive views on immortality tend to come from the Supernatural elements of speculative fiction. Books such as Anne Rice's Vampire chronicles come immediately to mind.

 

[BAYLOR]

I haven’t heard of that one, thanks. Let’s hope he’s some kind of pro-immortality Hero! jk ;-)
Seriously thanks, keep them coming guys and gals. You guys and gals rock!!!

WARNING SPOILER ALERT kinda ;

This seems to be immortality through cloning, which is acceptable to me. Am I right about it being about cloning immortality? Well, just remember it has to be about pro-immortality, not just about the subject of immortality.

Truth be told I think the best one can get is what hitmouse, lol, said : “ All of these discuss the ‘effects and challenges’ of immortality, ‘rather than being polemically pro or anti’. Again, most of the characters seem content.”

I’m not completely ok with that, it’s either pro-immortality or no science fiction at all. Like I said I spent about three years looking for such a book and all I found was ‘The Transhumanist Wager’. So, its nearly impossible that anyone here will find a pro-immortality science fiction novel. With that being said....I wish you all luck and I will love you forever if you are actually able to find such books. Of course you had to actually have read them yourselves, I don’t mind you searching like I did but all I found was a dead end. So you might find a dead end too if you run a search like I did for three years. But good luck!!,

To Live Forever by Jack Vance Not cheery book but ,it has an interesting and rather nasty premise about life extension.

Im not at all sure that physical immortality and or unlimited life extensions would be such desirable mode of existence.

Also The Veils of Azlaroc by Fred Saberhagen You might find this book to be of interest.

 

[Vince W]

The characters in Joe Haldeman's The Forever War become technically immortal by virtue of near lightspeed time dilation. Same for the characters in Poul Anderson's Tau Zero. They see the death of this universe and the birth of a new one.

 

[merritt]

way station - clifford simak

 

[Immortality]

Im not at all sure that physical immortality and or unlimited life extensions would be such desirable mode of existence.

Thanks for the recommendations. I started to read ‘To Live Forever’ but it had a negative stance on the subject of immortality, so I stopped reading it. Like I said positive ( or just plain neutral) , pro-immortality books, films,or television shows are nonexistent. Or at the very least extremely rare, mostly because the authors themselves are in a pro-aging trance too.

Sorry, that’s just not true what you say about immortality and unlimited life extension. Everyone here should read ‘Dr. Aubrey de Grey’s book ‘Ending Aging The Rejuvenation Breakthroughs That Could Reverse Human Aging in Our Lifetimes’. He went to Oxford University, so he’s no dummy. He’s also an amateur mathematian that partially cracked a decades old mathematical problem: Amateur mathematician partially solves 60-year-old problem
Everyone’s negative stances on the subject of immortality are just wrong, and will be outdated someday. Check out the book ‘The Scientific Conquest of Death : Eassays on Infinite Lifespans’ by the Immortality Institute. Lucky for you the book is free. You would of never of found the free version of the book without me because it’s an outdated website, that they haven't taken it down yet. I would start with this book , it’s where I started and it changed my mind on immortality, it’s a fantastic quick read. Pick which version you want, the PDF version? or do you want to buy it? or do you want to read the book on their webpage? Etc. I’m a member of their new website LongeCity.org and I frequent on their forums often so they allow me to give people their free ebook, otherwise everyone else would have to pay around $35 or more for it. Choose your format and tell me if it gets you thinking in the opposite direction about immortality, I think it will. I gave other people the book and while it didn’t changes everyone’s mind, it sure got them thinking about there own mortality and immortality in a different way forever. Let me know what you think when you’re done reading these very fascinating essays , there is even an essay by Dr. Aubrey de Grey. You can all private message me by way and tell me what you think of the two books I mentioned here, or you can just stike up conversation with me if you so please. Here you go, happy reading :

Book | Imminst.org - Immortality Institute

www.imminst.org

 

[Immortality]

I think the most positive views on immortality tend to come from the Supernatural elements of speculative fiction. Books such as Anne Rice's Vampire chronicles come immediately to mind.

Thanks for the recommendations. I was thinking the same thing the other night about vampires. You may be right about supernatural and speculative fiction, being positive about immortality. I haven’t read much Vampire fiction, the authors though do tend to make the Vampire as evil, instead of just given this great gift of immortality. I didn’t read the Anne Rice Novels but the film ‘Interview with a Vampire’ definitely has a negative outlook on the immortal Vampires, even the protagonist hates his own immortality. You see it’s things like that , that let me down. How about a Vampire short story or novel where they just live out their days drinking synthetic human blood, like on that tv show ‘True Blood’, there were some negative, but also very positive , elements about immortality I think in that show. Sure, so if anyone thinks of books on vampires or a short story collection/anthology on vampires where the novel or stories have a “ultimately positive, pro-immortality stance” , then it’s right up my alley.

Iain M. Banks's "Hydrogen Sonata" is loosely based around a character that has lived since the initial forming of The Culture.

Does the entires Culture series of books have immortality in it? Or just Hydrogen Sonata? By the way didn’t Mark Zuckerberg say he loved the Culture series somewhere ? I think he called it genius.

As for the other books you mentioned, well since they get bored that’s a ‘typical staple of anti-immortality fiction’. I never understood this. I would never get bored if I was able to live forever. Most people who say they would not like an immortal life are actually boring people to begin with. I had a friend like this, he was boring so I could see how he would be anti-immortality, which he was. How can anyone say this ? There is so much too do I would never run out of things to do and never get bored. I could read lots more books, I could learn new things like boxing or karate, I could travel the world , and since I’m immortal I could travel to distant planets and possibly see new life forms that are amazing,I could learn all the languages of Earth, I would be alive for first contact. I would be alive to see us finally grow out of our infancy, the grow out of our human adolescence and then finally become see people become a fully functioning mature culture. I could be alive for something like a real life Jurassic Park ( without them killing human beings of course, science fiction always looks on the downside of things most of the time, but it doesn’t have to be that way, I have read positive outlook science fiction.), I could have lots of sex with different women ( who doesn’t like sex? I mean come on. ) I could finally see what it’s like to travel at the speed of light ( or faster then the speed of light possibly? ), my list just keeps going on and on and on forever, just like I would. So, I would never, ever, ever, ever get bored. I’m sorry there is far much too do and experience, and to continue to love life, love it’s beauty. So, no boredom for me.

“What about the Altered Carbon books? Not immortal as such, but cortical stacks enable your consciousness to be digitally stored and uploaded into other bodies (sleeves).”

I own the first book , ‘Altered Carbon’ but have not read It yet, been on my shelves for years. Something tells me it’s ultimately NOT “ positive in its stance on pro-immortality? Am I right? Or should I give it a read?

 

[hitmouse]

@Immortality the selection of books recommended in this thread is excellent if you are looking for treatments of immortality in SF. I hope you enjoy reading them, but I am concerned that you will be disappointed if you are seeking fiction that simply justifies the enthusiasms you express in this thread. In fact, fiction may not be what you need.
The novels listed are intelligent stories where immortality, or at least very long life, is an interesting plot device. These are not political or religious polemics.

Nevertheless, I think this is a really interesting list.
I will add The Lord of the Rings

 

[Immortality]

As for my polemics , I’m sorry I just have such a passion. I will put my ideas in another part of the forum, very sorry. Won’t happen again. I guess I’m just a little too passionate about immortality and I like to get the word out I guess. Try to change peoples minds , expand their minds perhaps.

Anyway fiction is exactly what I need ( I sent you a personal message because I thought you had mentioned recommendations of a religious nature, did you get that message? Well, if not that’s all I really said. ) my criteria must belong to at least more then one book, as I have stated The Transhumanist Wager is positive towards the idea of pro-immortality. It won a ‘Visionary Award’ . So, perhaps I need to narrow my list down to visionary fiction ( if it exists? ) or, as a member here has stated, ‘speculative fiction’ in order to quench my deep thirst for a positive outlook on pro-immortality. Surely there must be more then one book that holds my criteria : positive outlook on pro-immortality ? Or is it the only one in existence so far? If so I would say this man Zoltan Istvan has accomplished something completely new in philosophical science fiction, a positive outlook towards immortality. By the way did I tell you Zoltan Istvan went around the country riding in a bus , with his political friends and colleagues , that looked like a coffin that he called “the immortality bus” . He went around speaking to people about why he was running for president of United States of America , during the Clinton/Trump period ( which obviously he didn’t win, and that was the past so I’m not really debating politics or religion here . I might of mentioned the topic but I didn’t mean to come across as someone who was a political or religious mouthpiece. I’m more just interested in getting people to look at immortality differently, but now I know this is not the right place for that ) I’m not political or religious so I don’t know how I came across that way maybe it’s my autism. Anyway I’m sure someone here will eventually find something, there just has to be more then one book fitting my criteria. Well, two books because I think Robert A. Heinlein’s Howard families books like Time Enough for Love and Lazarus Long pulled it off. So that makes at least two books that fit my criteria, there must be at least a few more fiction fitting my criteria and a little more is enough for me.

Anyway if anyone sees Tomorrowland film with George Clooney or find books, or films or television that fit my criteria which is as I have stated enough already : must be positive ( or just plain neutral ) towards pro-immortality. Then please let me know I would love to know. Other then that I will wrap this up...thanks everyone for your recommendations, thank you very, very, very much. I mean it, thank you. Thank you. This will be my last post, unless someone thinks of a new science fiction book or finds something on the internet that might interest me, in relation to positive pro-immortality fiction, film, or television...then bring on the recommendations. Thanks everyone for being so kind too. Hope you find more science fiction , or anything really, that fits my criteria, I would be so happy if you did. Feel free to message me if you want to chat about stuff I mentioned or just want to be friends and shoot the breeze. Bye all

 

[Vertigo]

Sorry, that’s just not true what you say about immortality and unlimited life extension. Everyone here should read ‘Dr. Aubrey de Grey’s book ‘Ending Aging The Rejuvenation Breakthroughs That Could Reverse Human Aging in Our Lifetimes’. He went to Oxford University, so he’s no dummy. He’s also an amateur mathematian that partially cracked a decades old mathematical problem: Amateur mathematician partially solves 60-year-old problem
Everyone’s negative stances on the subject of immortality are just wrong, and will be outdated someday. Check out the book ‘The Scientific Conquest of Death : Eassays on Infinite Lifespans’ by the Immortality Institute. Lucky for you the book is free. You would of never of found the free version of the book without me because it’s an outdated website, that they haven't taken it down yet. I would start with this book , it’s where I started and it changed my mind on immortality, it’s a fantastic quick read. Pick which version you want, the PDF version? or do you want to buy it? or do you want to read the book on their webpage? Etc. I’m a member of their new website LongeCity.org and I frequent on their forums often so they allow me to give people their free ebook, otherwise everyone else would have to pay around $35 or more for it. Choose your format and tell me if it gets you thinking in the opposite direction about immortality, I think it will. I gave other people the book and while it didn’t changes everyone’s mind, it sure got them thinking about there own mortality and immortality in a different way forever. Let me know what you think when you’re done reading these very fascinating essays , there is even an essay by Dr. Aubrey de Grey. You can all private message me by way and tell me what you think of the two books I mentioned here, or you can just stike up conversation with me if you so please. Here you go, happy reading :

Book | Imminst.org - Immortality Institute

www.imminst.org

Your argument in this post is all about whether immortality will ever be possible, not about whether it is desirable which was the observation that you are answering. It is quite possible that immortality (barring accidental death) may eventually be achieved but whether it is desirable or not is a very different question.

This topic has been discussed on the Chrons many times before. I think the most recent thread on the topic might have been this one: Suppose Science Made Immortality Into A Reality?

I think I'd refer you to that thread if you want to discuss the desirability of immortality.

Regarding books that are for or against immortality, however, I'd suggest that most are neither; it is simply part of the world building. I have read many books that have immortality, or at least longevity, as part of the world building but few, if any, in which the pros and cons of it are the central message or indeed part of it. Many will highlight, in an incidental manner, certain advantages and disadvantages as their story progresses but I can think of few in which it is treated as categorically a good or bad thing.

I would also argue that if you are interested in immortality you should read books that present both stances rather than just abandoning a book as soon as it presents a negative aspect of immortality. Only by doing so will you get a balanced view on the subject. In fact I'd suggest that it is always important (possibly more so) to read literature that challenges your beliefs rather than only literature that supports them.

Incidentally I think the boredom you speak of is one of the least significant problems of longevity there are far far bigger issues with it as discussed at some length in that thread. I would also add that the pros and cons of longevity are largely dependent on whether they are set in a post-scarcity civilisation. A post-scarcity civilisation would negate many of the negative aspects of longevity, without it longevity becomes much more problematic.

 

[Bick]

It’s not clear to me why the OP is so set on only reading pro-immortality novels, at the expense of everything else. Seems like an unusual obsession to me, so I’m curious.