"The History of The Lord of the Rings": 2020 Discussion Group

Hugh asked, "I have no idea where Tolkien got the idea of Black Riders from, and their sense of smell. Even in the Shire they're seriously frightening. Any ideas anyone?"

I don't know. It must be there's more than one "source" -- to the extent that the Riders are in some way derived from some source(s). The Riders as dreadful, supernatural agents that gallop around in the dark seem folkloric. The thing about their sense of smell is another matter. It seems to ally them more to the world of animals than of people.
Strange isn’t it... you’d think there would be the seed of the idea somewhere. I had a quick look around and couldn’t find anything. Given the amount written on Tolkien, you’d think somebody would have come up with some idea or other.
 
I've written dozens of articles for Beyond Bree, some of which deal with sources and influences, that have left no mark on books of Tolkien scholarship, etc. An obvious explanation for this suggests itself! (ahem) However, it's also possible that they are overlooked because BB isn't widely circulated even though some readers might find them worth reading. Thus it seems to me very possible that somebody has come up with ideas about the source of the Black Riders and that it's been published in Amon Hen, Mallorn, some other fanzine -- even Beyond Bree -- but hasn't left a mark at Tolkien Gateway or in books, etc.

Who knows what lurks within the pages of these 'zines? --

 
Merry wondered about the sniffing as well, and they can smell blood, according to Aragorn:

'Can the Riders see?' asked Merry. 'I mean, they seem usually to have used their noses rather than their eyes, smelling for us, if smelling is the right word, at least in the daylight. But you made us lie down flat when you saw them down below; and now you talk of being seen, if we move.'
'I was too careless on the hill-top,' answered Strider. 'I was very anxious to find some sign of Gandalf; but it was a mistake for three of us to go up and stand there so long. For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it.
FotR, Bk1, Ch11, A Knife in the Dark

I've just bought A Dictionary of Sources of Tolkien - David Day. Unfortunately it's the ebook, and what I gain in economy (£2.99 Kindle: £25.00 hardback) I lose on ease of reference. I'll see if it sheds any light on precisely where the Black Riders came from.
 
Ghosts' thirst for blood would be closely related.

See in linked source below E250: Bloodthirsty revenants -- as a folktale motif.
also
E272.2. E272.2. Ghost rides behind rider on horse. (Cf. E215.) England, U.S.: *Baughman.



A reminder that, for those interested in folktales, we do have a thread here at Chrons.

 
Last edited:
I've just bought A Dictionary of Sources of Tolkien - David Day. Unfortunately it's the ebook, and what I gain in economy (£2.99 Kindle: £25.00 hardback) I lose on ease of reference. I'll see if it sheds any light on precisely where the Black Riders came from.

That looks interesting. Am I right that David Day is on the wrong side of the Tolkien estate so does not have access to quotes etc? When I say "wrong side" I don't mean any malice, just that he doesn't get their seal of approval.
 
I don’t seem to see his work cited in the Tolkien scholarship I see. I think you’re right about his working independently of the Tolkien estate.
 
Yes, I come across this disclaimer on his books:
This work is unofficial and is not authorized by the Tolkien Estate or HarperCollins Publishers.

That does not mean though that the Dictionary of Sources is not worth purchasing. I'm interested in getting a copy.
 
A great deal of worthwhile work on Tolkien is done without interaction with the Estate, but just within usual scholarly conventions of fair use.

Where I would have more of a question about Day and other authors would concern their knowledge of Tolkien’s scholarly milieu, medieval literature, Tolkien’s recreational reading, and the work that’s appeared in various journals and fanzines. Who’s in the book’s index? A book on Tolkien’s sources and influences should probably mention Buchan as well as Haggard, sagas as well as Beowulf, MacDonald as well as the Inklings, etc.

Does it mention O’Neill’s Land Under England or the Kibbo Kift? Is Sibelius in the index as well as Wagner? Those aren’t essential but they would strike me as good signs.
 
Last edited:
Over at John Rateliff's Sacnoth's Scriptorium blog, someone comments:

------On the topic of birds: Today I learned Tolkien likely named the harbor of Numenorean Gondor, Pelargir, after the Greek word for "stork" (pelargos).

It's possible he may have intended to allude as well to the Pelasgians, the name used by ancient Greeks to refer to their forebears in primeval times, which some ancient writers (such as Aristophanes in The Birds) thought might be connected to "pelargos" because they were migrants out of Egypt.

Andrew McCarthy------

Well, who knows? But at the least, Tolkien likely would have "heard" an echo of the Greek word all right. It would be interesting to have a sort of clearinghouse for all the Middle-earth words that seem likely to have real-language connections.
 
Why on earth would JRRT name a harbour after the Greek word for a non-marine bird? Seems a bit random, if not smelling a bit of the lamp...
Pelargir is Sindarin for "Garth of (the) Royal Ships". The first element derives from the Elvish element/root pel- ("go round, encircle"), the two other elements appear to be ar(a) ("royal, noble") + cîr ("ships")
Tolkien Gateway
 
Sure -- still, all the same, the Greek word could have echoed in Tolkien's mind. Storks, such as the black stork, can be associated with estuaries, and I take it Pelargir was built in an estuarine area. But maybe it's just coincidence.
 
Load your pistols, here's another possible word-derivation to shoot at!

88/ Thellamie -- might derive from the (anti-)Monastery of Thélème in Rabelais's Gargantua and Pantagruel. I haven't read the book, but I gather Thélème is an "abbey" for men and women from which the hypocritical and the ugly are barred and whose residents are commanded to do as they please; so, perhaps, not a bad choice of a whimsical (?) imaginary location to add to others in the "Errantry" poem. Easy to imagine that Tolkien would expect a university audience to recognize the allusion, if there is one.

The playfulness with the sounds of words in "Errantry" might have appealed to C. S. Lewis and, who knows, might even have moved him to write his "Narnian Suite."

 
Merry wondered about the sniffing as well, and they can smell blood, according to Aragorn:


FotR, Bk1, Ch11, A Knife in the Dark

I've just bought A Dictionary of Sources of Tolkien - David Day. Unfortunately it's the ebook, and what I gain in economy (£2.99 Kindle: £25.00 hardback) I lose on ease of reference. I'll see if it sheds any light on precisely where the Black Riders came from.

And I have it now...
(£16.23 from Blackwells)
I have several other of David Day's books, including of course the Bestiary, and this one looks in the same vein - not much in the way of footnotes etc, but easily digestible which suits me just fine.

It's not a great help vis a vis the Black Riders, but perhaps that's not surprising given the lack of material elsewhere concerning their origins, as far as I can see.
The only links (dubious ones) it provides are
(1) Keats' poem "La Belle Dame sans Merci"
(2) The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
(3) Some musings on the significance of the number nine.

This makes me admire the creation of the Black Riders all the more as being uniquely Tolkien. For me their appearance takes the Hobbitish beginnings of the LOTR to a different dimension.

Regarding "La Belle Dame sans Merci": I'm pretty ignorant regarding poetry, but it does remind me of Tolkien's work, though any link with the Black Riders seems pushing it.

First verses:
O what can ail thee, knight-at-arms,
Alone and palely loitering?
The sedge has withered from the lake,
And no birds sing.

O what can ail thee, knight-at-arms,
So haggard and so woe-begone?
The squirrel’s granary is full,
And the harvest’s done.
 
There's a nice detail in the PJ film - when the hobbits are hiding under the tree-roots on their way across the Shire to Buckland, there's a shot of the hooves of the horse carrying the Black Rider - and they're bleeding from the horse-shoe nails...
 
Hugh, that Keats poem is a real masterpiece of eerie fantasy. As for sources for the Black Riders -- the Four Horsemen seems like quite a stretch, doesn't it! I wouldn't be surprised if Tolkien were acquainted with some folkloric source(s) for the dead who gallop around the countryside terrifying people. Could the Wild Hunt have been involved?

By the way -- some people have been, I think, uncomfortable with speculations about "sources." And of course I wouldn't want to impose such things on them. But from within Tolkien's legendarium it could be that folktales, mythology, etc. that (from another and external point of view) are possible "sources" for a 20th-century author, are echoes of, shadows cast by, the true events that happened in the Third Age or earlier. Thus the Black Riders could be the "source" for the stories of galloping Dead, etc.
 
We've paused a bit in the discussion of The Treason of Isengard. Would anyone care to discuss Tolkien's prose, whether in his drafts or in the final versions? Below I paste some passages from a 2012 posting on Tolkien's Prose and Arthur Machen's. I wrote:

For years I have felt there was some affinity between Tolkien's writing, which simply means more to me than that of any other fantasist, and certain passages of Arthur Machen's. I recently managed to complete a second reading, after almost 40 years, of his Hill of Dreams. For me, the best of the book comes right at the beginning, in description of a 12-year-old boy's wanderings in the lanes and hills of his Welsh home region:

-----Then he climbed again, and went up between limestone rocks, higher and higher, till the noise of waters became indistinct, a faint humming of swarming hives in summer. He walked some distance on level ground, till there was a break in the banks and a stile on which he could lean and look out. He found himself, as he had hoped, afar and forlorn; he had strayed into outland and occult territory. From the eminence of the lane, skirting the brow of a hill, he looked down into deep valleys and dingles, and beyond, across the trees, to remoter country, wild bare hills and dark wooded lands meeting the grey still sky. Immediately beneath his feet the ground sloped steep down to the valley, a hillside of close grass patched with dead bracken, and dotted here and there with stunted thorns, and below there were deep oak woods, all still and silent, and lonely as if no one ever passed that way. The grass and bracken and thorns and woods, all were brown and grey beneath the leaden sky, and as Lucian looked he was amazed, as though he were reading a wonderful story, the meaning of which was a little greater than his understanding. Then, like the hero of a fairy-book, he went on and on, catching now and again glimpses of the amazing country into which he had penetrated, and perceiving rather than seeing that as the day waned everything grew more grey and somber. As he advanced he heard the evening sounds of the farms, the low of the cattle, and the barking of the sheepdogs; a faint thin noise from far away. It was growing late, and as the shadows blackened he walked faster, till once more the lane began to descend, there was a sharp turn, and he found himself, with a good deal of relief, and a little disappointment, on familiar ground.----

A few phrases ("like the hero of a fairy-book," etc.) would have to be edited out, but otherwise this seems to me akin, say, to passages in Tolkien's Smith of Wootton Major, etc.

Now how does this kind of prose work? Well, an essay by John Rateliff, from Tolkien Studies #6, seems to me to get closer than about anything else I have seen. Rateliff writes:

....first I want to draw attention to Tolkien’s own description of how his prose works, of what he was trying to achieve. In one of the endnotes appended to “On Fairy-stories,” he includes the following revealing passage setting forth his narrative method, in which he makes clear his goal of writing in such a way as to draw in his readers, making them participate in the creation of the fictional world by encouraging them to draw on their own personal memories when reading one of his evocative passages:

[quoting Tolkien:]..... If a story says “he climbed a hill and saw a river in the valley below,” the illustrator may catch, or nearly catch, his own vision of such a scene; but every hearer of the words will have his own picture, and it will be made out of all the hills and rivers and dales he has ever seen, but specially out of The Hill, The River, The Valley which were for him the first embodiment of the word. ....

Rateliff continues:

Tolkien’s contrast here of a single image presented to the passive viewer with the internal personalized visualization of a reader, who thus participates in the (sub)creation of the work, is of a piece with his championing, in the Foreword of the second edition to The Lord of the Rings, of what he calls applicability: his refusal to impose a single authorial or “allegorical” meaning on a work.8 I would argue that the style in which he chose to write, which he painstakingly developed over several decades until it reached its peak in The Hobbit and Farmer Giles of Ham and The Lord of the Rings and some of the late Silmarillion material, is deliberately crafted to spark reader participation. That many readers do get drawn in is witnessed by the intense investment so many people have in these books, the strong personal connection they form with the story, the almost visceral rejection of illustrations or dramatizations that do not fit their own inner vision of the characters, the returning to reread the books again and again to renew our acquaintance with the imaginary world.

[Rateliff quotes a Tolkien passage and a John Bellairs passage. He comments:]

note that in the passage from Tolkien, he does not describe every detail—what color were the rocks? who was on either side of Frodo as he sat huddled against the bitter cold? But Tolkien does tell us everything we need to know, in general terms with just enough specific detail to bring the scene home, to guide the reader’s imagination, to draw on our own memories of being cold and frozen, exhausted and miserable. We do not need to know what Frodo looked like, because we are looking through his eyes; too much detail would actually limit the applicability......

.....he often describes a scene not as you would experience it but as you would remember it afterwards. That is, his prose assumes the tone of things which have already happened, as they are stored in our memory. Thus the “walking bits,” which have so annoyed impatient readers who are only reading for the plot, do not in fact detail every day of Frodo’s year-long journey but instead are rendered down to a relatively few vivid images, such as would linger in the memory long after the event. After you have read these passages and think back on them, they very strongly resemble your actual memories of similar events (in fact, the very ones that provided the mental images that flashed through your mind when reading them) : a general recollection of where you were and what you were doing anchored by a few sharp, vivid, specific details that stand out. Thus the memory of reading the story gains the associations of events in the reader’s own life, because the one has already drawn upon the other

.....Here, it seems to me, a Tolkien scholar (one of the best) has just about nailed it for me, not just on how Tolkien's prose works, but the best Machen prose (not all of it, that's for sure) too.


A way to get at the distinctive qualities of Tolkien's writing (which, of course, isn't always in the same manner!) is to compare and contrast with C. S. Lewis's.


But right now I'm rereading Raymond Edwards's underappreciated Tolkien (2014). As I read page 83, I thought of a notable contrast in their literary creation. Lewis said (in connection with Narnia) "it all began with a picture" in his mind. But, summarizing remarks of Tolkien's, Tom Shippey refers to "creation from philology" -- that is, "it all began with a word."

This is not to say that Lewis was not interested in words -- a preposterous notion (cf. his late book Studies in Words and virtually anything he ever wrote) -- or that Tolkien's writing doesn't appeal to the senses (see Shippey's discussion of the Withywindle passage, in The Road to Middle-earth). But if handled delicately, this contrast might be a tool that could be useful in discussing the ways in which the two friends went about creating their imagined worlds.
 
Thank you. I did enjoy reading the above very much, though I have little to add. I have never read anything by Machen. I did read the Raymond Edwards biography a few years ago and thought it was good: that was in the context of reading several books/biographies on Tolkien in a row, so it certainly impressed me, but I don't have the energy to revisit it/them right now.

As regards The Treason of Isengard: I reached page 206 before pausing, but while interesting, I found nothing that I wanted to comment on.
 
I'll want to back up and comment on some things prior to this page, but --

127/At the time of the Last Alliance against Sauron at the end of the Second Age, "Great forces were gathered together, even of beasts and birds; and of all living things some were in either host, save only the Elves. They alone were undivided, and followed Gilgalad" against Sauron. This is the report of Elrond.

In The Fellowship of the Ring as published, Tolkien has omitted the reference to "beasts and birds" participating in the great conflict. Thus we are not offered the picture of, say, bears, eagles, and wolves -- or foxes, sparrows, snakes, mice, etc. -- participating in this apocalyptic battle.

However, in The Silmarillion, in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age," the omniscient narrator says, "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only" (p. 294 my hardcover edition).

This Silmarillion text was Christopher's presentation of his father's legendarium, and CJRT had some misgivings about it. I remain grateful for it. A handy, readable, and single-volume presentation was much needed and nobody was better qualified than CJRT to prepare it.

However, this may be an instance in which CJRT's work didn't reflect what his father's final intention "would have been" -- something that, I suppose, nobody knows.

The idea of these great hosts drawn up in battle, with even birds and beasts in each, is sublime. It does, though, raise questions about the wills and consciousnesses of birds and beasts that Tolkien might well have hesitated to raise. It suggests that all the birds and beasts were hnau, rational, moral agents. Tolkien could have it that they were (or that they weren't), but it's a great matter indeed.

I think, then, that given the inevitability of The Silmarillion being taken as "canonical," CJRT might have been well advised to omit the reference to the participation of birds and beasts unless -- as he never said anywhere as far as I know -- he knew that such was his father's intention.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads


Back
Top