When you're asking for critical analysis from other writers...

I agree with Jo but would emphasize her comment about confidence. If confidence is an issue, for a new or an experienced writer, then that early feedback can do more harm than good. Not always, but the odds run that way. If the writer is confident--especially on those two aspects of voice and process--then early feedback can help, mainly because the confident writer is fine with accepting bits while rejecting others.
 
...is it better to have ongoing criticism as you write or should you complete a first draught then ask for help?

It is often wise to imbibe a few draughts before settling down to read what the others think.
 
I have another suggestion too. I accidentally found that having the text-to-speech (screen reader) go over my text is a decent way of critiquing my own work. By hearing the story in someone else's voice, it sounds different, and I can find flaws better. It also helps with punctuation. Nothing beats getting feedback from actual readers who form part of your target audience though, and all the advice on this thread is great.
 
I accidentally found that having the text-to-speech (screen reader) go over my text is a decent way of critiquing my own work. By hearing the story in someone else's voice, it sounds different, and I can find flaws better. It also helps with punctuation

Which text-to-voice did you use? I've tried MS Word (Office 365 version), and it was pretty terrible. I think more than a page would drive me nuts. Acrobat Reader was even worse.

The principle is a good one, though.
 
If I'm looking for emphasis and nuance, then screen readers are terrible. I'm looking, though, for just the opposite. I'm delighted when the screen reader gets a fantasy name "wrong" because I know some of my readers will. I appreciate the clumsy pacing of sentences because it forces me to listen with fresh ears. If the screen reader were the only way I experienced my writing, it would indeed be terrible. But as an alternative, one that is utterly without passion or understanding, it's invaluable.

That said, I can only do a scene at a time. The voice gets wearing, but worse than that, it's so flat it becomes easy to ignore. My attention can wander (my attention wanders more readily than an Irish Setter in an open field). Having to hear the novel in drips and drabs drags out the process, but it's proved helpful in giving me another pass before sending off to an editor. I can tell it's useful because I make so many corrections and emendations!
 
Has anyone had another person read their own story back to them? A friend offered to do mine for me, but I couldn't face it. If you had a willing reader whose voice you could bear for hours, though, it might be a brilliant resource.
 
I've mentioned this before, but this thread is the perfect opportunity to mention it again.
You don't need a word-to-voice thingy to do the "read in a different voice" technique - which, by the way, is an invaluable thing, and well worth doing. All you need to do is read your own work in your mind using a well known voice. I usually use Stephen Fry, because his voice is so distinctive. Then, your words appear (once you've got used to doing this) to be read by somebody else, and you can get some of the necessary distance from your own work.
Also, my g/f writes poetry, and records herself reading some sections, then listens back. It's a great way of taking that one step away from your own work for the purposes of editing.
 
Weirdly, the voice in my head when I read my own work isn't mine... not sure whose it is, but I hate the sound of my own voice, recorded. Seriously, MS voice reader is better than me. But when I've been on local radio, I sound okay...
 
My current project won't be getting any attention until it's had a couple of redrafts as I can see some things that needed work. With my first attempt as a teenager though, tougher criticism early on could have been helpful.
 
...is it better to have ongoing criticism as you write or should you complete a first draught then ask for help?

If possible, i'd rather avoid writing twenty chapters of drivel most of which will have to be chopped.

Apologies if i posted this in the wrong board.

My answer will likely be at odds with the other members of this forum.

Ongoing criticism will stifle your creative voice. Don't do it.

Write a novel, it it's crap it won't sell; let the market hone your work.

If you are seeking feedback, don't do it from your peers beccause they're beginners like you. Seek friendships with experienced writer with 10 plus novels who have been successful in selling lots of copies.
 
Seek friendships with experienced writer with 10 plus novels who have been successful in selling lots of copies.

Yes, because "you're successful, please take time from your busy life to help me" approaches are just what those people are waiting for.

More realistically, seek huge handouts from a billionaire and hire a top-class editor.
 
Yes, because "you're successful, please take time from your busy life to help me" approaches are just what those people are waiting for.

More realistically, seek huge handouts from a billionaire and hire a top-class editor.

Well, if you're serious about your writing you will meet lots of successful authors, and eventually you'll find out they're just people and make connections, and this will lead to talks and advice.

If on the other hand you expect to wonder up to (insert name of author here) and get advice from the get go, as you correctly state, you'll be sh*t out of luck.

And, while I'm at it, responding to you, here's a couple of links that any aspiring author should chase, because you know what, established authors pay it forward. Here's some free content...

Brandon Sanderson:

Dan Wells:

And here's where to buy lectures...

Dean Wesley Smith & Kristine Kathyrn Rusch:
 
Ann Rice has been extraordinarily generous in sharing advice and her ways of working on youtube and her facebook talks.
She is also a wonderfully positive person. Someone I would love to have as a friend, despite my lack of interest in vampires.

 
You have to experience life, too. Asking famous writers for advice is like saying how do I go through the same writer-defining experiences as youwhich is rather nonsensical when you think about it.

In that regard there’s no harm in asking help from other non-famous writers. You can learn all sorts from them - to write off (NPI) someone’s advice just because they’re not pubbed massively misses the point.

Why the hell would someone ask Dan Brown or Jeffrey Archer for their writing advice when they’re formulaic hacks?
 
Well, if you're serious about your writing you will meet lots of successful authors, and eventually you'll find out they're just people and make connections, and this will lead to talks and advice.

Videos and talks etc can be valuable, but the OP was asking about criticism of their writing, and that's not something a successful author is likely to provide to someone they don't already know very well.

Ongoing criticism will stifle your creative voice. Don't do it.

That's very proscriptive, and by no means necessarily true. Yes, it's a risk, and you have to learn how to be critiqued as much as you have to learn to critique (and to write) and that takes time. But it's worth learning, in my view.

Write a novel, it it's crap it won't sell; let the market hone your work.

What does "let the market hone your work" mean, though? Unless you're lucky and already very good, the only feedback you're likely to get from the market (if you're aiming for trad publishing) is "thanks, but it's not right for us". How does that by itself help anyone hone their writing?
 
>Ongoing criticism will stifle your creative voice.
This goes back to my comment about confidence. A writer who is secure with their writing can take even harsh criticism at most any point. When the comment is barbed, I admit I can feel the arrow when it lands, but I'm able to pluck it out and keep going. At other times, I can grit my teeth and see where the improvement needs to be made. Most times, I'm just grateful somebody caught the mistake before I showed the story around any further.

I'll also say that how I react to criticism has evolved over time. Some cuts bite deeper than others. A criticism of grammar doesn't affect me at all. A criticism of pacing or structure troubles me. A criticsm that says this character just doesn't work, especially of a character I like, feels strangely personal, even though it isn't. Those are the toughest to evaluate.

But creative voice? For myself, if my creative voice could be stifled, I wouldn't call myself a writer. That voice is irrepressible, won't shut up. It's as bad as my dog, who insists on being walked every day or it just drives me and everyone around me nuts.

That said, I do recognize that others appear to be much more fragile on this. I don't say that as a criticism, but as a recognition that not everyone is the same. So, if you're a new writer, be aware of how you react to criticism. If it really hurts--and it truly does for some folks--then be more cautious in soliciting criticism. The very worst thing to do, imo, is for the tender writer to show first-draft new writing to a group of strangers. I see this on Facebook a *lot*. Some folks need encouragement before they need critiques. And nobody needs random roasting.
 
And, while I'm at it, responding to you, here's a couple of links that any aspiring author should chase, because you know what, established authors pay it forward. Here's some free content...

We all pay it forward. We’re bloody exhausted paying things forward, left and right. What you are linking to is completely different from what the OP wants which is critical analysis on their manuscript.

I’m a two bit writer from nowhere. I can’t tell you how many approaches I get asking will I read people’s’ openings, or five chapters, or whatever.... and I don’t have time to do that between chairing a convention (that brings well known published writers to it to give advice to attendees), running a writers support Facebook group, mentoring and a zillion other paying it forwards stuff.

Knocking peer support is missing a tier of critical support. Of course, be choosy, look for peers who are great writers - or who have a nose for great critique - but seeking a published writer with ten great books behind them is a lottery, not to also sat pretty presumptuous.
 
Speaking from experience i find it easier to have the critique for each section or chapter. Work on that then move on to the next. The issue you have here though is that you end up putting off "the flow" in place of editing coz you'll always be stop start but on saying that i find it easier to be able to do this and make sure, as you say, you don't write 12 chapters of crap to redo it all
 

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