Style Comparison

[-K2-]

I'm not good on the terminology either, but I think the writing flows better without phrases like "made her" that seem to take me out of the PoV.

Agree... that example of yours a method to resolve that which I'll seriously consider throughout.

Thanks again for your help AlexH,

K2

 

[-K2-]

Thanks everyone for your help. The lessons from this on paragraph I'll apply throughout. This is where I'm leaving it (naturally, until I change my mind again ). Bold aspects are somewhat remaining portions of the original paragraph:

...What in the hell is that you’re speaking anyway? Speak English.”

Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-busting roar. Startled, Kae stiffened expecting to fight for her life. “Po’, yawut Meircan? Un ats P-say wha pes. Welp, P-say Sowfilly style, Sowfee-say. As mi say, mi from ‘ere, mi ahways bint ‘ere. Mae’ say G-tahk fo Meircan.” [T2F]

Despite Pogue’s outburst, only a few people around them stirred before falling right back to sleep. Unable to shake Pogue and unwilling to kill her, Kae was trapped. From there on in ignoring Kae’s pleas, Pogue jabbered away at full volume.

“Shh, not so loud, okay? Pogue is it?...

Original:

Kae was wrong thinking it couldn’t get any worse. Her question caused Pogue to burst out laughing. Not a soft giggle, but a gut-busting roar that startled Kae, made her freeze and tense, preparing to fight for her life. Regardless, only a few people around them stirred. Past that, they never said a word. From there on in, no matter how much Kae tried to get Pogue to speak softly, she kept yammering away at full volume.

K2

 

[The Judge]

I'd think of changing the "howled out laughing" and "outburst" neither of which quite work for me, but otherwise that looks fine -- it does the job and I do like the extra explanation in the second bolded para which makes things clearer. One thing that might causes temporary confusion, though:

Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-busting roar. Startled, Kae stiffened expecting to fight for her life. “Po’, yawut Meircan?"

Although you start the para with Pogue, because the next sentence is to do with Kae, a reader's expectation on seeing the dialogue immediately thereafter is that it's Kae speaking. Obviously, it's not Kae's speech pattern, and if we've seen Pogue speak before we'll click it's her talking, but there's a temporary hiatus while we -- OK, I -- assess what's going on.

I think there are two ways of avoiding the problem: make the first two sentences into one, so keeping Pogue as the main character (eg "Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-bursting roar, startling Kae, who stiffened, ...") or put the dialogue into a new para of its own and incorporate a dialogue tag. The advantage of the latter is that you can get in that Pogue is talking loudly there without having to wait to the end of the next para to be sure that's what "outburst" means.

 

[-K2-]

I'd think of changing the "howled out laughing" and "outburst" neither of which quite work for me, but otherwise that looks fine -- it does the job and I do like the extra explanation in the second bolded para which makes things clearer. One thing that might causes temporary confusion, though:

Although you start the para with Pogue, because the next sentence is to do with Kae, a reader's expectation on seeing the dialogue immediately thereafter is that it's Kae speaking. Obviously, it's not Kae's speech pattern, and if we've seen Pogue speak before we'll click it's her talking, but there's a temporary hiatus while we -- OK, I -- assess what's going on.

I think there are two ways of avoiding the problem: make the first two sentences into one, so keeping Pogue as the main character (eg "Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-bursting roar, startling Kae, who stiffened, ...") or put the dialogue into a new para of its own and incorporate a dialogue tag. The advantage of the latter is that you can get in that Pogue is talking loudly there without having to wait to the end of the next para to be sure that's what "outburst" means.

I'm with you on howled--outburst not so much--although, the reason for each is that 'despite Pogue's outburst' was changed from 'Despite the noise.' 'Noise' really didn't fit. The outburst was BOTH Pogue's laugh and her loud speaking. So, burst-out so near outburst didn't fly and I needed to make a choice... I'll think on an 'outburst' replacement and then can replace howled.

On to the important comment... There have been enough lines at this point that there will be little doubt as to who is speaking. Regardless, the point about Pogue speaking, directly following a statement about Kae is noted and well taken. I'll probably lean toward merging the two sentences, mostly since, I don't like either as short as they are without an adjoining sentence/clause elaborating a little (on that sentence's point).

I assume for your second option you mean:

Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-busting roar. Startled, Kae stiffened expecting to fight for her life.

“Po’, yawut Meircan? Un ats P-say wha pes. Welp, P-say Sowfilly style, Sowfee-say. As mi say, mi from ‘ere, mi ahways bint ‘ere. Mae’ say G-tahk fo Meircan,” despite Pogue’s outburst, only a few people around them stirred before falling right back to sleep. Unable to shake Pogue and unwilling to kill her, Kae was trapped. From there on in ignoring Kae’s pleas, Pogue jabbered away at full volume.

I'll take a hard look at it. I try to avoid very short (one or two brief sentences) non-dialogue paragraphs unless they make an important point...BUT...that does render the effect I'm wanting--making Pogue's unexpected laugh and Kae's reaction stand out as a 1-2 punch. IOW, startle the reader--dead stop.

I considered:

Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-busting roar. “Po’, yawut Meircan? Un ats P-say wha pes. Welp, P-say Sowfilly style, Sowfee-say. As mi say, mi from ‘ere, mi ahways bint ‘ere. Mae’ say G-tahk fo Meircan.”

Startled, Kae stiffened expecting to fight for her life. Despite Pogue’s outburst, only a few people around them stirred before falling right back to sleep. Unable to shake Pogue and unwilling to kill her, Kae was trapped. From there on in ignoring Kae’s pleas, Pogue jabbered away at full volume.

But, that's as wrong as the problem at hand; the order of events being:
Kae asks ?> Pogue laughs> Kae cringes> Pogue speaks> as Pogue speaks, Kae notes residents> Kae answers

Thanks for your response, the points well taken,

K2

 

[The Judge]

I assume for your second option you mean:

Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-busting roar. Startled, Kae stiffened expecting to fight for her life.​

​

“Po’, yawut Meircan? Un ats P-say wha pes. Welp, P-say Sowfilly style, Sowfee-say. As mi say, mi from ‘ere, mi ahways bint ‘ere. Mae’ say G-tahk fo Meircan,” despite Pogue’s outburst, only a few people around them stirred before falling right back to sleep. Unable to shake Pogue and unwilling to kill her, Kae was trapped. From there on in ignoring Kae’s pleas, Pogue jabbered away at full volume.​

​

Not quite. I'd have it as

Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-busting roar. Startled, Kae stiffened, expecting to fight for her life.​

​

“Po’, yawut Meircan?" Pogue yelled. [or called/yammered/whatever means loud] "Un ats P-say wha pes. Welp, P-say Sowfilly style, Sowfee-say. As mi say, mi from ‘ere, mi ahways bint ‘ere. Mae’ say G-tahk fo Meircan.”​

​

Despite Pogue’s outburst, only a few people around them stirred before falling right back to sleep. Unable to shake Pogue and unwilling to kill her, Kae was trapped. From there on in, ignoring Kae’s pleas, Pogue jabbered away at full volume.​

So the dialogue tag as soon as possible after Pogue starts speaking so there's no confusion. The "despite Pogue's" isn't actually a dialogue tag -- those are things like she said/cried/muttered -- it's the beginning of a fresh sentence, so needs to full stop (period) and capital letter. And although that line follows what Pogue has said/done, since it goes onto other things, to my mind it needs to be in a separate para of its own. (I wouldn't worry about avoiding short non-dialogue paras -- as long as you don't overdo them, they help to maintain pace and propel the story forward.)

I considered:
Pogue howled out laughing with a gut-busting roar. “Po’, yawut Meircan? Un ats P-say wha pes. Welp, P-say Sowfilly style, Sowfee-say. As mi say, mi from ‘ere, mi ahways bint ‘ere. Mae’ say G-tahk fo Meircan.”

Startled, Kae stiffened expecting to fight for her life. Despite Pogue’s outburst, only a few people around them stirred before falling right back to sleep. Unable to shake Pogue and unwilling to kill her, Kae was trapped. From there on in ignoring Kae’s pleas, Pogue jabbered away at full volume.
But, that's as wrong as the problem at hand; the order of events being:
Kae asks ?> Pogue laughs> Kae cringes> Pogue speaks> as Pogue speaks, Kae notes residents> Kae answers

I agree. You need Kae's reaction as soon as Pogue laughs, so it's much too late in that version. An alternative might be something like:

With a gut-busting laugh, Pogue roared “Po’, yawut Meircan?" Startled, Kae stiffened, expecting to fight for her life, but Pogue continued, oblivious: "Un ats P-say wha pes. Welp, P-say Sowfilly style, Sowfee-say. As mi say, mi from ‘ere, mi ahways bint ‘ere. Mae’ say G-tahk fo Meircan.”​

​

But as I said before, you can pick away at lines in isolation -- and believe me, I do this all the time with my writing!! -- but the important thing is the overall effect of the whole scene/chapter. So leave this behind for now, and get on with the rest!

 

[Bren G]

-K2-

Great that you are looking at this from different angles and getting feedback on each. There's a clear methodical approach here that I respectfully will poach! I'll add to the pool of opinions if I may.

I, like everyone else fall into the '3rd one' camp. It's more straight forward and easy to visualize. It's hard for me to comment without understanding the context of the entire scene but here are some additional thoughts to consider that I hope are helpful.

1) The placing of Kae's thought - Kae was wrong thinking it couldn’t get any worse - disrupts the tension caused by Pogue's laugh. It might work better before the question like this..

Kae thought things couldn't get worse but knew otherwise in the instant after she asked, "What in the hell is that your're speaking? Speak English."

2) Style is of course subjective, so here is my own way for what it is worth. I aim to let the dialogue do that 'talking.' In other words, I try not to 'tell' - he burst out laughing - in favor of 'show' using the descriptive - a gut bursting roar.

3) Use the verb as a condition of the description. In this regard, if I wanted to use the word 'laugh' it would be to set up the action that follows it, and not to describe the action itself.

Instead of - a gut bust roar that startled Kat. I'd lean more towards something like:

Pogue belched a gut-busting roar. The laugh startled Kae, who froze and tensed as if ready for a fight.

I believe it puts you in her frame of mind vs being an observer of her actions.

4) Remove non-value words and let the reader fill in the gaps. or use more descriptive ones get more economy from them. Things like -

1. made her freeze - is not needed. Kae froze - will do fine.
2. Not a soft giggle - unless she was expecting this for some reason, it doesn't buy you anything since everyone knows a gut bursting roar is not a soft giggle.
3. Kae was wrong thinking it couldn’t get any worse. vs As she stared at the mess all around her, she knew it couldn't get worse. (a few more words but paints a picture vs stating something only.)
4. Kae was wrong thinking it couldn’t get any worse vs Kae thought things.. (see below).
5. Also, most stylists assert that past tense verbs are best, and as you can see, I have used it here, but many sci-fi author's aren't so strict about it. However, it can be confusing to the reader if it isn't clear that events happened or are happening

5) Here would be my quick n dirty take for example purposes :

Kae thought things couldn't get worse so she didn't mind getting to the point. "What in the hell is that your're mumbling? Speak English."
Pogue's gut-bursting roar told her otherwise. Startled, Kae froze and tensed as if ready for a fight. But it was strange. She was the only one who reacted to his flaming outburst, the few people that milled about kept their glances to the ground as if they had seen all this before or more probably - didn't want any more trouble. It was important to know which was right. Was she dealing with a toothless blowhard or a dangerous explosive?

As i mentioned, I don't have the context but I assume there is some importance to the fact that the 'others around them' aren't reacting to his outburst. If not, there isn't much value in the line. I wrote it up in a way that gives the reader an indication of some of her character traits and illustrates she is smart, calculating, observant - though that may not be your intention. Also, I tried to build some tension. Is he going to blow or turn into a soft puppy when a bit of pressure is applied. At any rate, it is merely an example of the approach.

Thanks for inviting me into your process and good luck!

Bren G

 

[-K2-]

Well thank you @Bren G for spending so much time on your response. I'll take some time and chew on it a bit with the other responses. I appreciate your help and various other suggestions which I'll apply throughout my work.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

K2

 

[Bren G]

Well thank you @Bren G for spending so much time on your response. I'll take some time and chew on it a bit with the other responses. I appreciate your help and various other suggestions which I'll apply throughout my work.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

K2

Thanks! Happy to be here!

 

[Peeling]

Kae was wrong thinking it couldn’t get any worse. Her question caused Pogue to burst out laughing. Not a soft giggle, but a gut-busting roar that startled Kae, made her freeze and tense, preparing to fight for her life. Regardless, only a few people around them stirred. Past that, they never said a word. From there on in, no matter how much Kae tried to get Pogue to speak softly, she kept yammering away at full volume.

I think for young readers, this amount of spoonfeeding would be acceptable. For YA and above, it's too much. Kae asks a question, Pogue bursts out laughing: I don't need the causal link explaining. You're also dropping spoilers (they never said a word; from there on Pogue kept yammering) that dilute the tension.

Pogue burst out laughing. Not a soft giggle, but a gut-busting roar that startled Kae, made her freeze and tense, expecting to fight for her life. Only a few people around them stirred, but past that never said a word. No matter how much Kae tried to get Pogue to speak softly, she kept yammering away at full volume.

I think this reads better, for a YA audience. The spoilers are still there, though. Tension (I don't mean fear or apprehension, just interest in what the outcome is going to be) is a precious commodity; avoid squandering it.

Pogue burst out laughing, a gut-busting roar that startled Kae, made her freeze and tense, expecting to fight for her life. A few people around them stirred, but past that never said a word. (No matter how much Kae tried to get Pogue to speak softly, she kept yammering away at full volume.--Remove and let subsequent direct dialogue and action reflect that--the Pogue volume aspect, likely needs to remain, rephrased better).

This is a lot closer to what I'd expect to read in a book for mature readers. The opening sentence is snappier, better reflecting the sudden outburst. As for how loud Pogue is being, why not reveal it through dialogue and Kae's reactions?

 

[-K2-]

Thanks @Peeling for your input. As said, I've been applying such changes throughout...eliminating and rewriting where I've foreshadowed action in any way (and saved it for all the info-dumping ) @Brian G Turner, soon after I joined, pointed out that flaw in my delivery. Nevertheless, I went ahead and wrote the novel 'with those tells.' The reason being, so I'd remember all the information I wanted to remember and ultimately convey.

Now editing, I'm chopping out all of those tells and extraneous information (pertinent to the moment)--or trying to--and I'm liking the result very much. The trick, however, for me to remember, is not to cut to a point the reader doesn't have a clear image.

Thanks again for your help, and welcome to the forum!

Good on you and @Bren G for jumping in and helping on the critiques

K2

 

[Bren G]

K2 -

you nailed it with this quote :

The trick, however, for me to remember, is not to cut to a point the reader doesn't have a clear image

Just yesterday I had someone read a page I wrote and he said, "I like it but I can't exactly tell where it is happening." It was clear that in my desire to be economical with my words, I created another problem in that there wasn't enough for, as you say, the reader to have a clear image. Which is why feedback is such a wonderful gift!

Anyway, very sage advice you gave. Thanks again for letting me into your process.

BG