Doctor Who (38) 12:10- The *wotsit* Of The Cybermen

[BAYLOR]

So maybe it's not true, maybe that's the Master corrupting the files...

I think what they should do with Master is one of two things, have Doctor finally defeat him for good or put him on the path pf redemption.

 

[Narkalui]

Or just keep bringing him/her back once every couple of series to be a series Big Bad...

 

[Bagpuss]

I was bothered by the subsequent frequency of the child's "deaths" as Tecteun attempted to squeeze the secret of regeneration from her. Either the kid was amazingly accident-prone, or Mom was a little careless in her experiments -- knowing that, if things went terribly wrong, her subject would be back in a moment.

The other explanation is that Tectuen deliberately murdered her subject knowing that it would come back. You know, I'm sure there was once a bloke called Mengele that had the same outlook on life as Tecteun.

Of course, he had more people to work with. Although, in another way, so did she.

 

[Vince W]

The other explanation is that Tectuen deliberately murdered her subject knowing that it would come back. You know, I'm sure there was once a bloke called Mengele that had the same outlook on life as Tecteun.

Of course, he had more people to work with. Although, in another way, so did she.

That is a grim comparison. Apt, but grim.

 

[Matteo]

The other explanation is that Tectuen deliberately murdered her subject knowing that it would come back.

That's how I read it - I thought that was what was at the heart of the dreadful secret. After all, so what if a woman used a child's DNA to transform herself (and create the Time Lords) - though admittedly not nice, if the kid's life was filled with experimentation. But if that experimentation extended to forcing a regeneration...

So maybe it's not true, maybe that's the Master corrupting the files...

That's the explanation I'm hoping for (so much canon was changed/neglected) and it's quite possible. Would also point to a much bigger story - why did the Master do that, how is he hoping to use the Doctor? But that would require a far more sophisticated script than we've seen in the past two series...

Also, this is the Master. Would he really be bothered by anything of what we saw (the Time Lords stealing the regeneration process, experimenting on children, the Division, etc., etc.). Surely that's nothing compared to what he's done in the past - certainly not this current version.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Only viewing this at a distance, having not watched the latest incarnation since the first couple of episodes.

As a general rule, I'm not a fan of retconning. And this is about as large as it gets. I disliked RTD's Time War nonsense and locking away Gallifrey (and the daleks, only for both to repeatedly come back). But this changes the whole premise of the origin story, which was deliberately vague and the better for it.

I also dislike the way this builds on the New Who foolishness of making the Doctor into a Messiah, bloated with self-importance. Better a kindly traveller than a wandering prophet making moral proclamations.

From what I've read (and things can also be coloured by perspective), it seems they replaced the fugitive approach with a Doctor Mengele, retconned the Doctor into 'really' being a girl, retconned the origin of Gallifrey, retconned the Time Lords. But what did it add in terms of making things better? What did it improve?

It reminds me a bit of the 'twist' at the start of the latest Terminator film (I won't spoil it).

To paraphrase Goldblum, the writers were so preoccupied with whether they could they never stopped to think whether they should.

Really loved Doctor Who as a child. Kind of glad I've drifted away from it so much.

 

[Ursa major]

retconned the Doctor into 'really' being a girl

We have no idea:

• how many times the child had regenerated before appearing in our universe;
• how many times s/he had been a child;
• if any of this true (i.e. it could be what the Master wants -- or, previously, someone else wanted -- the Doctor to believe).

retconned the origin of Gallifrey

Did it (as opposed to retconning the origin of the Time Lords' ability to regenerate)?

 

[BT Jones]

Only just watched this tonight. Have to say, I'm beyond disappointed.

We've seen it all before. Arch villain wants to destroy everything (planet / universe / time / reality), but only at a season closer. But 'something' happens and the doctor ends up saving the day and destroying the arch villain for all time...or at least until the next season when they all magically come back for whatever reason.

Make no mistake, DW has done this repeatedly, even when the show was good, and it has become a tired cliche. The difference was, the episodes usually had something going for them. This one was just boring.

I've liked Sacha Dhawan when I've seen him previously, but the modern interpretation of The Master is just 'mwah, hah hah' maniacal villain 101. Always wanting to destroy absolutely everything. Thanos from Avengers was a great example of a bad guy with justifiable motivation that you could almost sympathise with. But the Master (and that includes John Sim and Michelle Gomez) is just sadistic and shallow.

Usually, however, as bad as a DW season can be (Season 3, second half of 7 and 10 were below par), there are usually some redeeming episodes, and an arc that really engages. Not so with Chris Chibnall's Doctor Who.

But for anyone that might think this is anti-Jodie or anti-female, that's not the case. Jodie is a terrific actress, and a female doctor was a great idea. The execution has just been generally poor. There have been 3 decent-good episodes this season (Tesla / Judoon / Haunting) 3 fair-to-middling, and 4 outright bad. TV (not just Doctor Who) works best when it is telling a simple story with time, space, breathing room and dedication to characters, plausibility and basic morals. The bad episodes this season have adopted the kitchen sink approach, which is to basically throw as much 'event' as possible into the show (just like Rise of Skywalker), regardless of whether it makes sense or befits the characters or the flow of the story. Spyfall (execrable) was exhibit A. Just stuff, after stuff, after stuff. As long it was happening quickly, they assumed people wouldn't mind.

It's a worrying trend, but if this is exactly what modern audiences want, then fair enough; it is time for us older heads to bow out and leave the show to a new generation of fans. There are more than enough classic episodes to keep us entertained, in amongst the smattering of new stuff worth investigating. If this is the way entertainment is going; i.e. just product, delivered on demand like fast food (I absolutely savaged my 11 year old son when I caught him watching part of a movie at 1.5 x speed), then have at it.

I'll just be doing something else with my time.

(...and given the population growth rate, there will be far more people born that enjoy the modern styling, so my departure from the 'fan' ranks will not be missed)

 

[Ursa major]

TV (not just Doctor Who) works best when it is telling a simple story with time, space

There's the problem right there: what have time and space got to do with Doctor Who...?

 

[Narkalui]

Only just watched this tonight. Have to say, I'm beyond disappointed.

We've seen it all before. Arch villain wants to destroy everything (planet / universe / time / reality), but only at a season closer. But 'something' happens and the doctor ends up saving the day and destroying the arch villain for all time...or at least until the next season when they all magically come back for whatever reason.

Make no mistake, DW has done this repeatedly, even when the show was good, and it has become a tired cliche. The difference was, the episodes usually had something going for them. This one was just boring.

I've liked Sacha Dhawan when I've seen him previously, but the modern interpretation of The Master is just 'mwah, hah hah' maniacal villain 101. Always wanting to destroy absolutely everything. Thanos from Avengers was a great example of a bad guy with justifiable motivation that you could almost sympathise with. But the Master (and that includes John Sim and Michelle Gomez) is just sadistic and shallow.

Usually, however, as bad as a DW season can be (Season 3, second half of 7 and 10 were below par), there are usually some redeeming episodes, and an arc that really engages. Not so with Chris Chibnall's Doctor Who.

But for anyone that might think this is anti-Jodie or anti-female, that's not the case. Jodie is a terrific actress, and a female doctor was a great idea. The execution has just been generally poor. There have been 3 decent-good episodes this season (Tesla / Judoon / Haunting) 3 fair-to-middling, and 4 outright bad. TV (not just Doctor Who) works best when it is telling a simple story with time, space, breathing room and dedication to characters, plausibility and basic morals. The bad episodes this season have adopted the kitchen sink approach, which is to basically throw as much 'event' as possible into the show (just like Rise of Skywalker), regardless of whether it makes sense or befits the characters or the flow of the story. Spyfall (execrable) was exhibit A. Just stuff, after stuff, after stuff. As long it was happening quickly, they assumed people wouldn't mind.

It's a worrying trend, but if this is exactly what modern audiences want, then fair enough; it is time for us older heads to bow out and leave the show to a new generation of fans. There are more than enough classic episodes to keep us entertained, in amongst the smattering of new stuff worth investigating. If this is the way entertainment is going; i.e. just product, delivered on demand like fast food (I absolutely savaged my 11 year old son when I caught him watching part of a movie at 1.5 x speed), then have at it.

I'll just be doing something else with my time.

(...and given the population growth rate, there will be far more people born that enjoy the modern styling, so my departure from the 'fan' ranks will not be missed)

I don't disagree with anything you've said, you reminded me of the utterly shocking "Themes are for 7th grade English papers" quote from Wiess and Benioff (imo basically an admission that they can't write).

But when it comes to Doctor Who I always watch with a glass that is definitely half full, as I've said before: I'd rather have bad Doctor Who than no Doctor Who. Michael Grade robbed me of Doctor Who when I was six years old, just as I'd started to love it. Whoever followed Sylvester McCoy would have been MY Doctor and I would not wish that deprivation on any future generation

 

[BT Jones]

Well said @Narkalui , and I agree. I certainly wouldn't want to deprive current fans or future generations of a great character; one that thinks, speaks but doesn't kill, and sees the beauty in everything. I just look at it same was as the last two Star Wars movies: just...why? Why couldn't they have cut all the extraneous noise, characters and MacGuffins and just go back to simple, honest story telling. 'Tesla' and 'Haunting' were two great examples of what they can achieve when they dial it down. But it's not just this show. I watched the most recent season of the rejuvenated X-Files. The 'episodes of the week' were fine, entertaining, and funny in places, but the 'arc' story episodes were appalling, to the extent that I simply stopped watching.

So, at the same time as saying I would love to preserve the character and show for future generations, I would also prefer that Doctor Who stayed true to its essence of character, moral and atmosphere, and not just become another breathless action show, jam-packed with 'event' - because if Spyfall is to be the template for the show moving forward, then even though it will still be in existence, Doctor Who may truly be lost.

But still, I live in hope; that writers can take criticism on board (assuming it is acknowledged). Season 1 of Chibnall's Broadchurch was superb. Season 2 was rushed, packed with short scenes, with several characters completely suffocated, in the name of delivering 'event'. Season 3, on the other hand, was a return to form of sorts, and granted a lot more time and space for the characters to breathe.