"Heresy!"

[.matthew.]

Documentary on the French resistance during WW2

 

[Parson]

As I understand it all the definitions up thread are right. --- The problem is that in general usage people are not careful to use the precise word for what they mean and so in common language the distinctions between the words originally come to mean less and less. As an educated group of people who play with the language we have mostly opted for the classical definitions. For example in speaking you have to be ready to understand an infidel as in some way opposed to the teaching of the religion. But not necessarily someone who has never ascribed to it. Or possibly someone who follows another religion. Same with Heretic. There is a classical definition: Someone who ascribes to a faith tradition, but who believes some central doctrine in a very different way. But it common usage it means "Someone who is not of the faith."

Whenever I hear these kinds of words I have to dig deeper to understand what the speaker actually means verses the classical definition of what s/he is saying. Otherwise I will respond in a way that might not pertain to the question.

 

[sknox]

.matthew. hits the key point: words change their meaning over time. To which I would add that even within a given time period, not everyone is using words in a consistent manner. So trying to find the "correct" meaning of a word, especially words having to do with theology, is swatting at gnats--you're just as likely to hit someone else at the bar and spend the rest of the night arguing.

One thing that I enjoy doing is learning not just the etymology of a word but its history--how it changes in meaning over time. Pagani originally just meant a rustic, someone who lived in the countryside. Heresy merely meant choice. Cultures and centuries layer meanings over the top of these.

Warhammer's ok by me. I would only object if they insisted their version of the word was the true one. That would be heresy.

 

[tinkerdan]

I always thought it was someone who deliberately is contrary in their practices or beliefs to something that is commonly accepted.
Meaning they have the knowledge and prefer to be contrary, though they don't necessarily have to be believers.

Possibly a non-believer would not qualify until you are sure they understand what your beliefs are.

I studied religion in college to a very minor extent and then studied several religions from within the organizations and could call myself a heretic, because there are many doctrinal beliefs I simply can't follow.

In the same note there are many religions that teach things that not every parishioner understands or knows and it is very difficult to follow something (religiously)that you don't know about--does that make them a heretic?

Probably not because the deliberate part has been removed by ignorance.

However; I have to question the integrity of the governing body of those churches.

 

[sknox]

Most religions allow for some non-conformity. There's also a big dose of look-the-other-way.

@tinkerdan, you are right that ignorance does not make heresy. Usually its very specific things. To speak to what I know, even believing utterly wrong things wasn't in itself heresy in the medieval Roman Catholic church. Persisting in those wrong things when offered correction, that's heresy. A classic example is the Cathars. They believed in two gods, co-eternal, equally powerful, one evil and one good. The evil one created the corporeal world. Those (and other) beliefs cut at the very core and foundation of medieval Christianity, but the Cathars insisted that *they* were the ones that understood the truth and that it was the Catholic orthodoxy that was heretical. Didn't turn turn out well for the Cathars.

But a fellow who believed that the local priest was supposed to bless his crops at planting each spring, he was not a heretic. He was simply misunderstanding the priesthood.

As for governing bodies, well those were comprised of human beings. You get your good 'uns and you get your bad 'uns.

 

[DannMcGrew]

And nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

 

[sknox]

Sure they did. Most times, the Inquisition sent notices ahead--especially in Spain. But the really bad one was in the Netherlands. More died there than anywhere else.

I sure know how to ruin a joke, don't I? Perhaps I'll just find a comfy chair and sit.

 

[DannMcGrew]

I sure know how to ruin a joke, don't I? Perhaps I'll just find a comfy chair and sit.

Time for a fish slap.

 

[Star-child]

It may be useful to consider that the primary. antonym of heresy is "orthodoxy".

 

[sknox]

It may be useful to consider that the primary. antonym of heresy is "orthodoxy".

Not quite, at least not technically. Though I doubt anyone cares about technical theological definitions.

The antonym of orthodox is heterodox, which is a gentler word than heresy. The heresiarch must be cast out as a danger to the faithful, whereas the heterodox can be tolerated. The great challenge of the medieval RCC was to define the line not between orthodoxy and heresy but between heterodoxy and heresy. That is, when does acceptable differences of opinion shade over into dangerous opinion?

 

[Elckerlyc]

But... can there be (accusations of) heresy without orthodoxy?

 

[sknox]

But... can there be (accusations of) heresy without orthodoxy?

Good question. I'd say no. All I was suggesting earlier is that there's more to the equation than orthodoxy or else heresy.

These discussions tend to center on Western religions. Not surprising, given that all these words are Greek and acquired their modern meaning within the context of Western churches. An interesting question to explore would be whether heresy exists in, say, Buddhism. Or Hindu. Or animism. Or even ancient polytheism. There certainly were arguments and even schisms. I suggest this because anyone working on a story in which orthodoxy and dissent play a role might find nuance and insight by looking outside the Mediterranean.

 

[Star-child]

Not quite, at least not technically. Though I doubt anyone cares about technical theological definitions.

The antonym of orthodox is heterodox, which is a gentler word than heresy. The heresiarch must be cast out as a danger to the faithful, whereas the heterodox can be tolerated. The great challenge of the medieval RCC was to define the line not between orthodoxy and heresy but between heterodoxy and heresy. That is, when does acceptable differences of opinion shade over into dangerous opinion?

I said the antonym of heresy. You gave the antonym of orthodox. What's the correct antonym of heresy?

 

[sknox]

The differences are too fine to fuss over. Unorthodox. I was more interested in not having heresy be the only alternative to orthodoxy. Looking for more of a range because I think there's story-telling opportunities in that space. We have plenty of stories in which any deviation from orthodoxy is labeled heresy.

 

[Robert Zwilling]

Its been my experience that religious sources tend to be not the best source of unbiased information. Anyone who isn't a Christian is a pagan is a very broad brush. Pagans exist the same way any other religion does. Back in the old days, Christians could say it, but they were including a whole lot of people who weren't Pagans in with the real Pagans, who still exist today. I know people like to think that dominant usage is the way to go when in doubt about how to use words and what they mean, but I think we have arrived at a place, much pointed out by numerous Monty Python skits, that when looking at an apple cart filled with green, yellow, red, and pink apples, we have been trained to say that because they are all apples, they are all red.*** I don't think Pagans appreciate the idea that they are worshiping false gods when the supposed mono god people all insist their single god is the only single god there is because that allows for many single gods to exist at the same time as in back to several gods being worshiped at the same time and while fewer in number it still isn't just one.

***Heresy, Hypocrisy or Skillful Advertising: There are 12 different edible berries in the world that are blue. They are not all in the "blueberry" family, but many of them are sold or used as blueberries when in fact they are blue berries.