Fantasy Trope Archeology

[Toby Frost]

That leads into a point I've been wondering about - would the boss hide his identity if he could just go legit or semi-legit? In a truly corrupt society, a large criminal gang would blur into a political militia, which in turn would blur into the secret police and would blur into "legitimate" politics. I can think of modern examples, but the brownshirts in Weimar Germany would be an older example. I'm sure recognised groups like the Medici family would have had similar entourages - the children of the rival houses in Romeo and Juliet are more or less gangs.

 

[The Judge]

Doesn't it actually depend on the criminal justice system?

Where it's necessary to ascertain the guilt of a suspect, there's no bar in having your name known as long as nothing can be proved -- which is why Al Capone and various of his successors to the modern day literally get away with murder, despite the police knowing full well who is truly responsible. In, say, the medieval period, there's lip service paid to proving guilt, but it's far easier for the state to remove those it simply suspects of being guilty without having to go to the bother of a fair trial, in which case it might be prudent to conceal your activities unless either you in no way threaten the state (ie you're only preying on the lower classes and not badly enough to cause civil disruption) or you're so powerful politically or militarily you can't be challenged.

Antonia Hodgson, who is very particular and thorough in her research, writes a series of murder mysteries set in the 1720s, and there's a character in the books who is a gang leader, but very much of the underworld class, not a rich/powerful man pulling the strings of those below him. Denizens of the underworld and its locale know not to cross him, and he's seen to have indirect access to the royal court, but he's not publicly known -- and this at a time when highwaymen and other notorious individual criminals are household names. He also ensures his gang and particularly his children don't flaunt their wealth, in order to avoid being noticed by those in charge of policing the areas where they operate. This strikes me as much more realistic.

 

[Dave]

D&D drew just as much if not more from Howard and Leiber, and from Anderson and Vance too. They have nothing of Tolkien's popularity, which erupted again before D&D. I don't think D&D is the reason for Tolkien's popularity - not to mention pretty much no non-gameline authors write about Orcs.

I'll bow to your better knowledge. Sure, Tolkien was popular before D&D but my anecdotal experience was of people suddenly discovering both Lord of the Rings and D&D in the late 1970's. However, I agree that doesn't suggest that the two things are linked at all.

 

[Dave]

The authorities, of course, would want to catch the person at the top of a criminal enterprise. (Unless they are corrupt and are paid to be lax and inefficient.)

Yes, you would think that would be the case but in my research into river pirate crime in the late 1700's, using mainly the Records of the Old Bailey, I found that 89% of those found guilty were Lumpers, Watermen, Porters and Fishermen for petty amounts, while the Copemen (what we would now call a fence) and the gang leaders were left untouched. Only one Commander of a ship, one toymaker and one liquor shop owner are found guilty despite the toymaker and liquor shop owner accounting for most of the goods stolen in terms of value. The poor were stealing small quantities of sugar, coffee, tea and such (which were worth much more than they are today but still tiny in proportion to the total theft value.)

This was despite there being 12 factories in Wapping alone, receiving the stolen goods, processing and repackaging them, and selling them on.

And yet the poor in manual occupations were also more harshly punished with sentences of hanging or 7 years transportation. The Commander received 12 months imprisonment and a fine for his involvement in stealing silk cloth. Those individuals who actually stole the silk were all executed. The liquor shop owner was transported for 14 years for receiving goods, but the toymaker got only a year’s confinement.

When you compare their ages, the trials do not demonstrate hardened criminal masterminds, but rather they show young men aged 20-24 with poor judgement, lead astray by older men who should know better. However, young men have always committed a disproportionate amount of crime, just as most crime has always been petty crime and opportunistic. So, little has changed in that respect.

The point of my research was to dispute the effectiveness of the Thames River Police (the first organised Police Force in the world) and despite the claims made, it was the building of wet docks on the Isle of Dogs with high walls that solved the problem. These removed the delays associated with the tide and insecurity of the cargo. Cargo could be unloaded throughout the hours of daylight without being left on the quayside.

The effectiveness of the River Police was more as a deterrent than as a detective or prosecution service, as was more the case with the Bow Street runners.

Of course, it may be different with land-based crime, and with medieval thieves guilds. I haven't researched that so I can't say but it is really no different today. I don't wish to get political as we aren't allowed, but look at the amount of effort put into investigations and prosecutions for benefit fraud compared to tax evasion. The former is likely to be hundreds of pounds, while the latter could be millions. So, I'd doubt that it was ever different.

I'd agree with the @The Judge 's conclusion, that the leaders were well known to the authorities but were too powerful to be prosecuted.

 

[The Big Peat]

I'll bow to your better knowledge. Sure, Tolkien was popular before D&D but my anecdotal experience was of people suddenly discovering both Lord of the Rings and D&D in the late 1970's. However, I agree that doesn't suggest that the two things are linked at all.

Hmm.

I think it would be perhaps better to say that there is a link, but the link is that they're both the 800 lb gorillas in the room when it comes to their slice of the fantasy genre. Somebody finds out about fantasy - probably usually through one of said gorillas - and likes it, they start looking for other fantasy things, they'll hear about the gorillas first.

Tbf, there is an actual direct link between the works in that the aesthetic of elves and dwarves and orcs and parties of adventurers with Wizards in comes from LotR and D&D took that and it ran with it. And maybe I'm overestimating how much people look at all the differences rather than at that basic similarity, particularly if we're talking people new to the genre. I see a wargame built around American S&S and early Fantasy, with a few historical conceptions and slices of orientalism and Tolkien's races thrown in, something that created a whole new type of fantasy; I suspect a lot of people do just see elves and wizards and dragons and so on.