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Game of Thrones: 8.05 - The Bells

Dan Jones

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but if the coin is coming up 'mad' all the time it becomes a cliché.
But it hasn't come up mad all the time - Rhaegar wasn't mad, and neither is Jon Snow. But yeah, take the point, I think Danaerys was always "on the edge," and she could have tipped either way at many points.

I agree with Jo that I suspect that in the books Danaerys's descent into madness will be a bit more of a, er, slow burn (sorry).
 

ctg

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But it was more than just foreshadowing.
He takes it all into the account. It's a twenty minute long video from a writer to writers and other geeks. And as always it's an opinion, but he goes very cleverly about it and bring many, many points already raised in here. His conclusion is that it was forced into this rather than being allowed to naturally develop into the conclusion.

Syfy did this same treatment with GRRM's Nightflyers and it wasn't received well by the large audience. It is as if we wanted to see a spectacle, but we also wanted to understand why instead of it just happening regardless. What happened to the "Death to the Tyranny?"

I wish you'd have watched the video.
 

ctg

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With one last episode before the Song of Ice and Fire finally wraps up, many fans are eager to see what will happen in the ending of Game of Thrones. But after the penultimate chapter called "The Bells" showed Daenerys Targaryen make the ultimate heel turn and burn thousands of innocent people in King's Landing, a lot of fans have expressed disappointment at the final season. And it sounds like they aren't the only ones upset with how things have turned out.

Daenerys Targaryen has suffered some drastic character changes over the course of just a few episodes. After spending seven seasons protecting innocent people and inflicting harm on her enemies, she seemingly snapped and decided she wasn't about that action. Instead, she reigned fire and death on the people who didn't even cross her — and actress Emilia Clarke hinted that she wasn't satisfied with this portrayal of the character.

When speaking with Vanity Fair about her character's final on-screen scenes, the actress bluntly stated that "It f*cked me up."

She added, "Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is..."
Emilia Clarke Doesn't Sound Like a Big Fan of Game of Thrones Final Season, Either

I saw this on Monday, but didn't read and didn't post until now. But it's kind of clear Emeli was more than upset about her character development. But as a trooper, she pulled it off. Then there is this

If you've even remotely kept an eye on the pop culture world in recent weeks, you've probably seen the passionate responses to the last few episodes of Game of Thrones. And if one new Internet trend is any indication, a surprising number of people are unhappy about the way the show's eighth and final season is shaking out.

A petition to remake Game of Thrones Season 8 has been making the rounds online, and has garnered more and more attention. At the time of this writing, the petition, which is titled "Remake Game of Thrones Season 8 with competent showrunners", has over 190,000 signatures and counting.

"David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have proven themselves to be woefully incompetent writers when they have no source material (i.e. the books) to fall back on." The petition reads in part. "This series deserves a final season that makes sense."
Over 190,000 Game of Thrones Fans Have Signed a Petition to Redo Season 8

Redo the whole of season 8 ... man, that is a tall order. Who is going to finance it? 304 000 names and the count is going up at moment of posting.
 

Al Jackson

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But it hasn't come up mad all the time - Rhaegar wasn't mad, and neither is Jon Snow. But yeah, take the point, I think Danaerys was always "on the edge," and she could have tipped either way at many points.

I agree with Jo that I suspect that in the books Danaerys's descent into madness will be a bit more of a, er, slow burn (sorry).
One thing they could have done in Ep 5 was to have some spark more than brooding , like a hidden scorpion taking shot at Drogon and missing...
Tho , as someone suggested, have Rhaegal, killed in the battle at KL during the bell tolling … I know that sounds like it makes Cersei more black but it makes the rampage more complex.
 

Jo Zebedee

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blah - flags. So many flags.
He takes it all into the account. It's a twenty minute long video from a writer to writers and other geeks. And as always it's an opinion, but he goes very cleverly about it and bring many, many points already raised in here. His conclusion is that it was forced into this rather than being allowed to naturally develop into the conclusion.

Syfy did this same treatment with GRRM's Nightflyers and it wasn't received well by the large audience. It is as if we wanted to see a spectacle, but we also wanted to understand why instead of it just happening regardless. What happened to the "Death to the Tyranny?"

I wish you'd have watched the video.
I did watch it and I don't agree with him. Or, rather, I partially do. But I'm not sure what the series writers were supposed to do with it. They already had form of taking huge shortcuts in order to transfer the epic to the more condensed screen version.

I understand why it happened. I have no problem that this is one way Dany's arc could have went right from the beginning. I never liked her as I found her cold, remote, calculating, entitled and cruel. I know others didn't, but that's fine. Because of the way I read her character from the beginning, I see this as a perfectly reasonable character arc, fully supported by what I know and feel of her. I really, really can't see why everyone is getting so out of shape about it all. It's like Luke Skywalker all over again... (another one I liked and others hated. I must be easily pleased.)
 

Al Jackson

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More than 190,000 fans probably have more than 190,000 different ways they want to see the season redone. Get busy, HBO! :D
You know I wonder what Bryan Cogman thinks? He became kind of the 'third' showrunner during the production of the show and was considered more the expert on the books , as well as being a good script writer. Cogman is also the only other person besides D&D present at those Santa Fe meetings where the Big Picture was discussed.
 
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Toby Frost

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I think that petition sums up everything I think is wrong about "fandom". Fine, dislike a programme. Tell your friends that it was bad. But don't think that you've got a right to get it done exactly as you wanted it. If you accept that George Martin isn't your bitch, surely you have to accept that the writers of the TV show aren't, either. Nobody is, because you're just a fan. You didn't make this thing, you just bought into it. It really is take it or leave it.
 
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The Big Peat

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Over 190,000 Game of Thrones Fans Have Signed a Petition to Redo Season 8

Redo the whole of season 8 ... man, that is a tall order. Who is going to finance it? 304 000 names and the count is going up at moment of posting.
I've defended the right of fans to complain but this is going a wee bit far. And of course, is utterly unrealistic. I've seen the refusal to shut up do amazing things recently, but this is surely a bridge or twenty beyond.

I think that petition sums up everything I think is wrong about "fandom". Fine, dislike a programme. Tell you friends that it was bad. But don't think that you've got a right to get it done exactly as you wanted it. If you accept that George Martin isn't your bitch, surely you have to accept that the writers of the TV show aren't, either. Nobody is, because you're just a fan. You didn't make this thing, you just bought into it. It really is take it or leave it.
Without the support of the fans, there's no Series 8 with huge CGI budgets anyway. Their support made this. And have probably gone a long way into tentpoling the fantasy genre for years.

I don't like this petition. But I also dislike the dismissal of heavy fan investment as being something valid when it turns critical. Believing this to be a highly unsatisfying ending that would be retconned if possible =/= wanting everything exactly one's own way. Believing he is not our bitch still allows us to believe there is an implicit pact between creator and fan that if we buy into their series, they'll give us more of what we like in the series and it'll end in a satisfying way given the initial promises - or the fans are the author's bitch.

Fans will give you their love when things are going well and booing when they're not. That's just the way it is and you can either have fans or not have fans. Take it or leave it.
 

Al Jackson

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I bet HBO is fine with GoT not doing Comic Con this year.
I do wonder what things will be like at Con of Thrones in July.
 

Toby Frost

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It's not the criticism that bothers me, so much as the entitlement to have it changed/redone. I grew up with two series - Alien and Star Wars - that have produced weak or just downright bad films. The bad films were let-downs, definitely, but I don't feel angry about Alien 3 or The Phantom Menace. I just think they're a bit poor. Even the killing of Newt and Hicks, which strikes me as a cheap and nasty trick, doesn't bother me in that way. I was all for the cancelled sequel that would have brought them back to life, but the fact that it's not going to happen just seems rather a shame.

I can't imagine being really furious in this way unless I had something personally invested in a work - and I think that would be a very different situation. I do think that an author is under some kind of "moral" (and not formal or contractual) obligation to give a work of fiction a coherent ending (and I'm using "moral" warily, as I don't think it's related to good and evil, etc). But it sounds as if the ending that's being provided here is coherent, just (arguably) not especially good. Fans are entitled to boo, certainly, but I think they should be aware that, if it's unsatisfactory, they can't remake it and shouldn't try to.
 

The Big Peat

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It's not the criticism that bothers me, so much as the entitlement to have it changed/redone. I grew up with two series - Alien and Star Wars - that have produced weak or just downright bad films. The bad films were let-downs, definitely, but I don't feel angry about Alien 3 or The Phantom Menace. I just think they're a bit poor. Even the killing of Newt and Hicks, which strikes me as a cheap and nasty trick, doesn't bother me in that way. I was all for the cancelled sequel that would have brought them back to life, but the fact that it's not going to happen just seems rather a shame.

I can't imagine being really furious in this way unless I had something personally invested in a work - and I think that would be a very different situation. I do think that an author is under some kind of "moral" (and not formal or contractual) obligation to give a work of fiction a coherent ending (and I'm using "moral" warily, as I don't think it's related to good and evil, etc). But it sounds as if the ending that's being provided here is coherent, just (arguably) not especially good. Fans are entitled to boo, certainly, but I think they should be aware that, if it's unsatisfactory, they can't remake it and shouldn't try to.
I can't imagine being that angry either but I'm just rarely that angry. And I can certainly get wanting them redone because I'm not sure they are truly coherent, and if they are they could certainly be a huge lot more. It's like the bulk of my university essays; acceptable but could be better for putting some back in and including the right amount of evidence.

The point on which I have to question the coherence isn't actually Dany though, but the whole defeat of the Night King/the Long Night/Prince That Was Promised etc.etc. That was a huge focus of the show, it was Westageddon, it was Chekhov's rocket launcher... and then it fired and a little paper flag saying "Bang!" appeared out of the end. I'm still not sure who The Prince That Was Promised actually is. Arya? I just googled whether she was and I'm seeing a theory that she is and will show it in the next episode... that's a hell of a twist if correct. I'm not sure if that'll be coherent. To not have a coherent ending to such a major plot strand is pretty weak.

And I think there's an argument that the tonal shift in the TV series makes the ending somewhat incoherent. If you ended The Godfather with a giant Commando-esque shootout, would it still be coherent?

I also think Alien 3/The Phantom Menace are somewhat different entities in that a self-contained story had been told prior to that, while this is the ending of the self-contained story, but that's more of an aside and its not a big difference.
 

Koopa

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that petition is a bit overboard imo. I mean if grrm ever writes the books sure. But atm, it's just people overreacting.
 

Dan Jones

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There's probably a bit of oneupmanship going on as well, with people trying to outdo each other with respect to airing their grievances, leading to hyperbole and SHOUTING and OVERUSE of CAPS on YOUTUBE.

I suspect most of t'interweb responses to GOT S8 are not as measured or objective or good-humoured as this one. And that's because we rule.
 

The Big Peat

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I'd like to add that I don't want to say fans are exempt from criticism for being emotional; just that it's got to be remembered that it's an inherent quality, and we have to be understanding of that if we want fans. And I think across everywhere, the whole "Overreaction" thing gets overplayed.

Although a petition is probably an overreaction...
 

Judderman

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I found the second half of this episode quite enjoyable overall. Considering some of the previous episode disappointments it at least did some things well.
The part with the Golden Company standing outside the walls and being burnt without doing anything was rather weak. Especially on top of the Fleet being destroyed so easily compared to the previous week's effort. And as discussed Dany's change went too extreme. Yes she was obviously showing a dark side for a long time. But massacring much of the population seemed too much. You just saw her grunt occasionally on her dragon. I think if she had burnt some streets on the direct route to the Red Keep it may have been more believable, though would have been a quick end..
Cersei and Jamie dieing in a collapse was a surprise really. No kill by Jamie or Arya. The Arya scenes in the city were well shot. Very war film-like. It added to the visuals, though not really the story. Arya is the star of the show now. Euron's scenes seemed rather shoed in.
The Clegane battle was good though I would have probably enjoyed a battle with a more human like Clegane brother. To see the emotions of both. Still they did a good job there.

So who did Varys get letters out to? Could a Dorne army roll up next week?
And is Bronn going to turn up?
Still interesting things that potentially could happen. Though try to keep expectations down.
 
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