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Star Trek - Discovery - 2.13: Such Sweet Sorrow, part 1

Cathbad

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Creating topic, remember you
can only discuss this episode
inside this topic. Reviews of
the episode are encouraged
WARNING!! There will be spoilers!
-----------------------------
Episode 2.13: Such Sweet Sorrow, aired 4/11/2019
 

Cathbad

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Star Treek Discovery continues to be the most visually stunning of all the Star Trek series.

The first season gave us the most complete storyline season of all times! Though the story didn't come together until the very end, it was impressively done!

Now, the second season stands on a dangerous precipice.

It has been my opinion that the sophomore season has had more ups and downs than the first, but it has always come back home. But the direction the Discovery now takes at the end of episode 13, is more than just strange. Exciting? Yes. But also troublesome. As most of you know, I'm not a major fan of timeline integrity: But neither do I want to see it blown out of the water. And this next episode could do just that.

It seemed to me there were many ways the writers could have taken toward a resolution: That they have chosen the most difficult (in terms of timeline integrity), is confusing. Was it conceit?

I fear if the final episode of Season 2 does not adequately (and properly?) bring this storyline to a conclusion, there might be a lot less viewers next season. They've put their b*lls in the wringer - and I'm just not sure they can safely remove them.

So, I stand ready to be WoWeD, just as I was with last season's final episode!

And I pray they "Make it so".
 

Narkalui

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Is it now my least favourite of American imports: the pointless 'mid season break' that you are all so fond of?
 

Narkalui

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Well, American TV continues to utilise a mid-season break so I feel it's logical to draw the conclusion that it's a popular fixture :whistle:
 

ctg

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Let me just say I don't buy to fact that they were able to make the suit in short time and make it workable without testing. Blueprints are one thing, but just like you saw with the time-crystal chamber, things doesn't go as well with it, because no testing.

They assume that Michael is able to open the singularity and ride it to future. What is going to stop the Ai from following Discovery, if Michael manages to open it? Also I find it strange that the AI was able to travel all around the Alpha sector, and acquire all those ships.

I suspect that Spock will bail out to Enterprise in last minute to save Captain Pike and the continuity is therefore saved. Later on Discovery settles into the new timeline, and connects with the Picard series, but before that happens, Michael has to save herself in the past by using the Suit.

What I don't understand is, why Control cannot wait and do the time-travel in old fashioned way to reach the point, where Discovery pops out with the sphere data? Also why nobody is saying that "it's strange how Sphere data acts as if it's intelligent?"
 

Dave

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I actually thought that they would destroy Discovery. I know it is the name of the show, but we have already discussed how the show is actually about Michael Burnham and if she went to the future and remained, then why not a new ship that also happened to be called Discovery?

I was simply disappointed that none of those questions being asked were resolved or answered before the end, and were left hanging for next Season. A cliffhanger ending of a Season I can accept if it is the kind where "circumstances are dire and time is critical" as Pike said last week, and Kirk was always saying something very similar. The kind of ending where whether or not they survive a major battle such as in Best of Both Worlds TNG when the Borg approach is left unresolved. However, here they just flung out a whole range of very different possible scenarios with widely different outcomes, and I felt that I didn't even know which they themselves thought was most likely or even preferred. Why does everyone even want to go to the future with Michael anyway? She at least has her mother waiting. Why is Spock going along at all, never mind the continuity aspects, it doesn't seem to make sense to risk so many people when it only requires a single person? And as @ctg says, what is to stop Control following in a ship? Or, how do they know that any one of the people who have volunteered is not already a Control impostor? As a plan, it doesn't hold out much hope of success.

I don't buy to fact that they were able to make the suit in short time and make it workable without testing. Blueprints are one thing, but just like you saw with the time-crystal chamber, things doesn't go as well with it, because no testing.
Agreed, but that was hardly my biggest problem in believing.

I find it strange that the AI was able to travel all around the Alpha sector, and acquire all those ships.
Strange, but less strange that they were Starfleet ships than that they were Section 31 ships, as we had believed last week.

...why nobody is saying that "it's strange how Sphere data acts as if it's intelligent?"
Yes, I'm confused by that. The Sphere data didn't want to be removed from the Discovery's computer memory, but that didn't mean that it had taken control of the whole ship including the self-destruct system. It seems a very poor design if something is able to do that and there is no separation between systems. For two different things to be able to take over whole ships, Control and the Sphere, then it borders on the design being criminally negligent. However, I never understood how Richard Daystrom who deigned the failed M5 computer, was then rewarded by having the Daystrom Institute named after him. It seems that in the Star Trek universe, computer designers can do no wrong. I'm so glad that we have better engineers designing our banking and National Health Service computer systems.

Anyone have any idea what it is that Ash must leave to do?

Why did Georgiou need to tell Pike she was Terran at that point? Michael had also promised to tell him all about the Discovery's history, and I had assumed that she had followed through. Why did she not after she promised to?
 

Cathbad

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I was simply disappointed that none of those questions being asked were resolved or answered before the end, and were left hanging for next Season.
Dave? I believe there's one more show this season...
 

Narkalui

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New idea just came to me: What if it's the Sphere Data controlling Discovery that wiped out all life in the future and Control is actually trying to save everyone by destroying it?
 

BAYLOR

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Let me just say I don't buy to fact that they were able to make the suit in short time and make it workable without testing. Blueprints are one thing, but just like you saw with the time-crystal chamber, things doesn't go as well with it, because no testing.

They assume that Michael is able to open the singularity and ride it to future. What is going to stop the Ai from following Discovery, if Michael manages to open it? Also I find it strange that the AI was able to travel all around the Alpha sector, and acquire all those ships.

I suspect that Spock will bail out to Enterprise in last minute to save Captain Pike and the continuity is therefore saved. Later on Discovery settles into the new timeline, and connects with the Picard series, but before that happens, Michael has to save herself in the past by using the Suit.

What I don't understand is, why Control cannot wait and do the time-travel in old fashioned way to reach the point, where Discovery pops out with the sphere data? Also why nobody is saying that "it's strange how Sphere data acts as if it's intelligent?"
Did they wipe out the Kelvin Timeline?
 

ctg

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Kelvin Timeline?
How is JJA's ST timeline going to be any helpful ... or relevant? If they'd really like to stir the pot, they would take Spock to future and forget Kirk/Spock/Bones relationship, while they forge something else.

Note that I do like the original series but I kind of like having Spock around, since JJA's Kelvin timeline Spock is no more. The biggest problem however by removing Spock from the TOS timeline is that he's never going to be in the movies and all those big, important events like his death and whole genesis incident with Khan is going to fall on some other people's shoulders.

It's just I get a feeling that Cpt Pike with wonderful Anson Mount is over. He was better than Lurka. I kind of wish we would see more of him. And to be honest, I'd like rather him going to future than Spock.
 

BAYLOR

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How is JJA's ST timeline going to be any helpful ... or relevant? If they'd really like to stir the pot, they would take Spock to future and forget Kirk/Spock/Bones relationship, while they forge something else.

Note that I do like the original series but I kind of like having Spock around, since JJA's Kelvin timeline Spock is no more. The biggest problem however by removing Spock from the TOS timeline is that he's never going to be in the movies and all those big, important events like his death and whole genesis incident with Khan is going to fall on some other people's shoulders.

It's just I get a feeling that Cpt Pike with wonderful Anson Mount is over. He was better than Lurka. I kind of wish we would see more of him. And to be honest, I'd like rather him going to future than Spock.
For the record, I liked the Kelvin timeline.

We might get a Captain Pike series.
 

BAYLOR

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Discovery has shown Pike in the condition he was in during TOS - so no, I don't believe you're going to get this series, friend.
That particular. incident is years away . They could still squeeze in a series in that timeframe. Also, they built an entire Enterprise bridge set. Given the expenses of building a set , That tells me they go bigger plans for it.
 
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ctg

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It is a theory and I have to admit that I never thought about the Borgs that were left in the post-apocalyptic Earth, before StarFleet and all that goodness took place. But it doesn't explain everything, only that it is very likely that STD is an iteration of ST universe and it takes into account the multiverse by using parallel timelines. With the Sporedrive you are able to break the boundaries, and visit those alternate timelines, not just the Mirror Universe.

But, it would also mean that the Kelvin timeline is not going to happen in the STD universe, making TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager to be in the main, and all the rest has developed some other way. It would also mean that in Discovery's universe, Spock doesn't flee Romulans to another world, and get completely lost from the Prime Universe.

Nobody hasn't asked what is going to happen to Enterprise, once Discovery has jumped and it is left alone with unknown number of Control's ships? Is it going to be able to fight it off, or are the premonitions shown in this episode a sing that the Enterprise has no choice, but to follow, or then Discovery has to abort the jump and try to assist to win the battle.

I'm saying this because it is very likely that Section 31 blackships are armed at least 2 (n+1) phaser banks and a set of torpedo launch tubes, plus whatever weird gismos S31 has been cooking in the black labs/stealing from other races, or archaeological digs.

Here's the thing, however, since the Sphere Data is a sentient and seems to be aware of its presence, why is that Discovery/Burnham has to find a way to save it, when it could override everything they do and do whatever it wants. In a way it must be thinking that the Discovery is a downgrade or an upgrade to its old self, and therefore, it can continue cruising the space forever, observing the species etc.

All while it has done so, and they kind of confirmed that it has gathered AI data, and what happened to them along its lifespan - Why is that nobody in Discovery or in the StarFleet thought that they should make an investigation into the data to see if they could find a way to solve the current problem? What happened to the normal investigation procedures?

I see a few possibilities of how this could have ended, but recently I've allowed STD just take its course and allow me to go where they boldly head into in the classical sense of exploring the unknown.
 
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