Star Trek - Discovery - 2.08: If Memory Serves

ctg

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Spock and Burnham head to Talos IV, where the process of healing Spock forces the siblings to confront their troubled past; Stamets desperately tries to reconnect with Hugh; Tyler struggles to shed the crew's suspicions of him due to his past as Voq.
 

ctg

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I got chills from seeing the TOS coming into the small screen straight from the beginning. Funny fact is that it was all played in Pike's memories and in it, he remembered all faces wrongly. Not that he really knew where Michael and Spock were heading.

The more intriguing detail was that Section 31 were talking to the admirals and they were completely foolish on where Burnham might be heading. The space is a supremely large place, and Emperess suggestion on putting out a fleet wide alert, but exclude Discovery from the whole thing sounded positively treacherous.



I cannot recall, but if anyone can, please tell me where I might have seen that piggy person before? All I can think of is the Orion Syndicate, but if they are in the StarFleet then does it mean that Orion doesn't have a criminal syndicate any more? The even more surprising thing is that the Admirality is relying on the advanced AI, and Georgiou rightly points out: "Why in this universe you take orders from the AI?"

It never used to be that way, and it hasn't as far as I can remember the ST "computer" has been mostly passive and there is rarely any input on what the crews should do. I cannot remember a single case, where the "computer" would have acted in the leading role. But here we are, with humans acting on the orders that an AI made. Has the AI's been every supremely useful in the ST?



Speaking of which, why is that the Shuttle couldn't detect a singularity in the Talos system? It's not like that thing is so small that it would have been able to escape the long range sensors. Even if you take the oldest StarFleet ship, they have been able to use sensors in warp, yet the singularity just jumped on Burnham's face out of nowhere.

Just like Michael, I was gaping at the small screen, questioning under my breath Spock's idea of heading straight into the black hole, because nobody can escape from there. In The Original Series there was no humongous holographic field covering the planet and more so, the shuttle was experiencing turmoils and shakes that we can imagine would happen if you'd dive straight in the heart of the singularity. But when Spock break the illusion, did it break it completely or did they drive through the holofield and entered into the planetary space?

Does the singularity still appear to everyone that comes near the Talos IV?



High heels in the freaking quarry? I know it's a international women day, but there doesn't seem to be sensible females in space, as I cannot imagine a reason for why you'd wear those things in the rocky terrain?

It bothered me more that when Michael asked Vina to provide coordinates, she put a finger on the console and that was enough of information for the computer to calculate the teleport coordinates in the Talosian underground facilities.

Vina explained that after the crash, when Talosians put her "together" they didn't really fix her, instead they provided some sort of illusion that allowed person in the normal space to see her as flawless girl, instead of scarred, broken one. But that doesn't explain the coordinates, only that the Talosian are able to project some sort telepathic, real-space illusion over their planet.



I think we can eliminate Older Spock and the Mirror Universe Burnham from Dave's list as the Red Bastard showed for the first time, when Spock was very young and it saved the Michael's life. It makes me to believe that the Angel is associated to both of them, not just Spock.

The intriguing bit of information is that Talosians then showed that Spock had seen the end of planet Earth, Kronos, Andoria's and Vulcan's deaths by the squid probes.

Thing is I can only think the Section 31 as the maker of those probes. Why? Well, they haven't shown any other candidates and we all know that they are supremely dodgy. Maybe they developed the StarFleet AI to a point, where it determined that the biggest threat against the Federation were its permanent, and the biggest members.

Some of you might not associate the blue people with antenna's on their heads as one of the StarFleet Founding members, because you haven't seen the Enterprise. During Cpt Archer's time, he was able to forge the alliance between them and the StarFleet, effectively doubling their strength as before Klingon's joined the band, the humans were the Fist of the StarFleet. After the alliance was forged Andorians became one of the biggest supports, equal to what Terra provided to the Federation.



Spock claimed that the thoughts of the Red Angel was human. That she was feeling loneliness, almost suggesting that the Red Bastard was trying to save the races, because it wanted to be feel something again.

When Burnham then saw what happened between the guards, the science officer and Mr Spock at the StarFleet medical facility, the lie around the murder allegations broke in pieces. I believe that the murder was Section 31 and Cpt Lealand's fabrication.

I believe that Burnham made a right decision when she asked Talosian's to contact Cpt Pike across the universe. The subspace communication would have put her and Spock in danger. To further then assessment that the Section 31 is behind the behind Spock made it clear that they wanted to have Spock's visions from the future.

The problem however is with Spock's request of Pike coming to pick them up is that a change in the course would alert the Section 31 to Talos. StarFleet could as well send additional ships in the area, so the spore drive was the only solution to jump across space-and-time to Talos IV.

It is almost like that the Spore Drive has become an essential instrument for the Discovery tales, and no matter how much they try to not use it, it always comes back to save the day. I would have loved seeing Pike figuring out some other way, but since the damn thing in there, it had to be used, like Chekov's Musket on the Mantle.

Luckily the writers must have seen the same problem as the travel wasn't without the complication and further bringing out that the Section 31 is an adversary in the current season. I believe that suggests strongly on the Red Bastard being protagonist. That feeling got even stronger when Ltn Airiam was confirmed to be compromised by Section 31 virus. Luckily, again, Cpt Pike isn't a green, when it comes to hyperspace manoeuvres and his plan to alter the course in midway was brilliant. The problem however again is that StarFleet vessels can track objects in the warp.

So it wasn't surprise that Leland ended in Talos IV at the same time as Discovery. And I loved that Talosian's used their projection powers to save Spock and Michael from Leland's torture. It was even more pleasing, when Empress revealed that she'd blasted Talosians off the rock, when they'd tried projections with her and Cpt Leland knew nothing about it, even though you'd imagine that the Section 31 would know everything.



You might be sorry but it doesn't remove the hate from the victims mind. I believe Voq's face is creating the problem for the Doctor Hugh. I would feel the same way in his shoes, and I'd probably act exactly like him, if the whole thing would had happened to me. But thing is Hugh's mind is similarly broken to Spock's and therefore, he would also benefit from a visit to Talos IV.
 

Dave

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Wow! You have a lot of questions!

I cannot recall, but if anyone can, please tell me where I might have seen that piggy person before?
Isn't it meant to be a Tellurian? After what they did with the Klingons, then it isn't a stretch to think they would update the Tellurians too.

ST "computer" has been mostly passive and there is rarely any input on what the crews should do.
I agree it was really a talking database, no more, but a true A.I. was just science fiction back then! Maybe it was too improbable. Also, where A. I. computers did take over control, as in the M5 on the Enterprise (The Ultimate Computer) or on Eminar Seven (A Taste of Armageddon), it was always depicted as a malevolent force. Computers were malevolent wherever they occurred (Shore Leave.)

why is that the Shuttle couldn't detect a singularity in the Talos system?
because it wasn't really there. I'm not sure if the Talosians can alter sensor records, but Burnham would believe what her own senses were telling her over the shuttle's sensors. Spock knew it was fake because of his previous visit, he would have seen the same as Burnham but ignored it.

Does the singularity still appear to everyone that comes near the Talos IV?
If the Spock/Pike visit was the first, then the Talosians would have had no need to have used the projection before then. In the future, yes probably, or something else similar. Except when the Enterprise returns they are expected by the Talosians and there would be no need to ward them off.

I really liked that this episode added to The Menagerie story. I've often wondered why after Pike's accident, the first thing Spock did was think, "Oh! I must take him to Talos IV!" Why would Spock "know" that was Pike's wish? What if Vina was no longer interested? Could he be sure the Talosians would help him? It is not logical to risk his life and career with these uncertainties. Now, we can see that these were not uncertainties at all, and that he was reciprocating what Pike did for him, risking his own career and life to fix his mental health. It is a small retcon, but not as big as Greedo shouting Han first.

I can only agree about High heels in the quarry.

Vina explained that after the crash, when Talosians put her "together" they didn't really fix her, instead they provided some sort of illusion that allowed person in the normal space to see her as flawless girl.
I think it is more complicated than that but that we would never understand it. That is the same explanation given it The Cage/The Menagerie. They have powers that are incomprehensible to us puny humans.

I think we can eliminate Older Spock and the Mirror Universe Burnham from Dave's list
Spock said it was human. I also agree now that it is a female and someone very close to Michael and Spock. This heavily suggests it is actually Michael herself.

The idea that Section 31 created the "squid probes" hadn't crossed my mind. They seemed too far advanced. However, what it is is a time-loop i.e. Terminator 2. The squid probe came back in time. It attacked the shuttle but was destroyed. Section 31 got the remains and from that it built a new squid probe, thereby creating the first of it's kind. This first squid probe reproduces itself and in the future thousands of them attack the Federation planets and cause, what I will call, the 'end of days', after which one of them escapes back in time....... It is also reminiscent of Babylon 5.

I believe that the murder was Section 31 and Cpt Leland's fabrication.
This would fit with their desire to get hold of the squid probe design information, and information on the future, and to keep both secret. Discovery must not allow the Section 31 vesrion of events to prevail if they are responsible for the 'end of days'.

It is almost like that the Spore Drive has become an essential instrument for the Discovery tales, and no matter how much they try to not use it, it always comes back to save the day... like Chekov's Musket on the Mantle.
or the sonic screwdriver in Dr Who.

I believe that suggests strongly on the Red Bastard being protagonist. That feeling got even stronger when Ltn Airiam was confirmed to be compromised by Section 31 virus.
I agree. The virus comes from the squid probe but Section 31 is just an unwitting tool in this whole scenario. Section 31 just sees a fabulous weapon they can use, they don't see it as something that will destroy the galaxy. Section 31 want the same as Starfleet, they are just more militaristic in meeting goals. If my idea of the origin of the probe is correct, and if that could be proved to Section 31, then they would instantly stop. Lt Airiam's actions are preventing that from happening (if she made the calls and broke the Spore Drive.)

The Red Angel is helping Spock and Michael. It is helping Discovery against the actions of the spore probe, Section 31 and Lt Airiam.

It was even more pleasing, when Empress revealed that she'd blasted Talosians off the rock, when they'd tried projections with her and Cpt Leland knew nothing about it, even though you'd imagine that the Section 31 would know everything.
I don't think Section 31 have any idea what she is capable of. We can also see now that, not only does she have her own agenda, but that there is much more that we don't know about her yet.

I don't know where they are taking the Culber storyline.
 
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Eway

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Wow! I had forgotten how thorough some of you guys could be. I haven't been around here much these days but after re-watching this weeks episode I felt I needed to stop by. I don't really know if this is my favorite episode so far but it definitely ranks high on the list. I'm hoping the series really cranks it up like this from now on. I know we're already confirmed for a third season but was worried it might just be a little flat. I'll watch again so I can add some thoughts.
 
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ctg

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The primary mystery of season two of Star Trek: Discovery has been clear from the very start: what is the Red Angel?

In recent weeks we’ve been given some important pieces of information about the nature of this apparently strange being. We know that it seems to be benevolent. We know that it appears to be capable of travelling through time. And now, thanks to the latest episode (If Memory Serves) we know that who or whatever the Red Angel is, she’s apparently human – at least according to Spock.

So who actually is the Red Angel?
Star Trek: Discovery - Who is the Red Angel?

There are plenty of potential characters the Red Angel could be but at the moment, our working theory is that the Red Angel is none other than Michael Burnham herself.
Of course, there are reasons why it might not be Burnham too.

For a start, if the angel repeatedly saves Burnham than there’s a paradox involved. Sure, time-travel isn’t an exact science, but given that there are timelines where Burnham dies it’d be hard for her to prevent her own death if she never reaches adulthood and joins Starfleet.

Furthermore, if Spock mind-melded with the angel, you would expect him to recognise if it was Burnham. He could have been keeping it from her, admittedly, but he genuinely didn’t seem to know who it was.

This leaves us with a couple of potential candidates as secondary theories – neither of whom seems likely.

It could, for example, be Georgiou. She doesn’t seem capable of the “desperation and loneliness” Spock described from his mind-meld, though she does have a strange interest in Michael and keeping her safe.
Alternatively, it could be Tilly. Who better to become the Red Angel than Disco’s own Red-haired Angel? As Michael’s friend she would be invested in keeping her alive, but her involvement with Saru’s interests are less clear. She’s a lot closer to Stamets, after all.

And hey, there’s another option: maybe it’s someone we don’t know yet! Some have even suggested that it could be Zora, Discovery’s AI from the Short Trek episode Calypso. It wouldn’t be surprising if Zora was involve somehow given that the angel is from the future, but unless she’s found a way to assume human form we have to rule that one out.
So Den of Geek puts their money on Burnham, Georgio, Tilly and Zora (Discovery's AI) but I would like to remove Zora from the list, because she's really not physical. Although I'd like to remove Tilly from the list, because she has bigger boobs then what the Red Angel possess.
 

Dave

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Re: Red Angel: Did you see my list of 16 possibles in the last episode?
I think that some form of Michael Burnham must be the prime suspect, however we can add Tilly to my list too to make 17.
 

ctg

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Did you see my list of 16 possibles in the last episode?
Yes and I replied to you. Even in this episode post where I put in the Dave's List reference. Maybe we should put up a vote in the next episode for the Red Angel candidates. My vote goes for the current timeline Prime Universe Burnham.
 

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