9.12: The Walking Dead - Guardians

ctg

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While one community struggles to ease tensions that threaten to divide from within, the true nature of another group comes into focus; a mission to rescue a friend has deadly consequences.
 

REBerg

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Clever lad, that Daryl -- turning the tables on the whisperer camp by weaponizing a walker death squad of his own. I'm assuming that the plan came from Daryl, although Connie could have been behind the move.
Retaking Lydia was questionable. She seemed to have proven her switched loyalty by withholding intel from Evil Mama Alpha. (Rescuing the easily disarmed and captured Henry was more questionable.)
When Lydia asked her Mom if she had come for her only to get information, Alpha's unspecific "What a stupid question" reply left her motivation open to speculation. I think Lydia knew that the answer was "yes."

50501
Meanwhile, back in Alexandria, it took a sassy six-year-old to make Michonne realize that she had become an isolationist control freak. United, the settlements defeated Negan and the Saviors. Divided, they would fall -- one by one.
I loved Judith's "Well, obviously" response when Michonne told her that Negan "is not your friend."
 

ctg

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When Lydia asked her Mom if she had come for her only to get information, Alpha's unspecific "What a stupid question" reply left her motivation open to speculation. I think Lydia knew that the answer was "yes."
One of the first things Lydia told Alpha was that she lied about things. That she never told them how many of them really were there and that she was reeling in the boy. Then she revealed Hilltop "have mostly farmland, their weapons are basic and there are only few guns."

Lydia was in fact more intimated by Alpha's presence than she was about anything Daryl managed to throw at her. Clearly she would have done better at Henry love shack, than out there amongst the Dead and their herders.

Surprisingly she cleared the conversation by claiming "The only reason you came to get is the information" and not her, even though that was what she said to the Hilltoppers, and to Daryl's face.



It took a sassy six-year-old to make Michonne realize that she had become an isolationist control freak. United, the settlements defeated Negan and the Saviors. Divided, they would fall -- one by one.
Michonne should read our forums. It's all talked in here, LOL. I loved that Gabriel went and said to Michonne, "Everything is about the security these days. Going out there is dangerous, but so is cutting us out from rest of the world. Who is going to help us when we need it?"

Back in the medieval days Michonne's mentality would be called the Castle Mentality, ie thinking nobody can break in and the walls will hold everything. But it's not just Alexandria or Kingdom's problem, because they are all living in the Rickland without able to rely on their neighbours.

A smart leader could pick them one by one and by the King for the Day. Maybe even forever, because Rickland offers so much to the survivors that is not out there. If they only would have more people to throw them at the problems. But breeding out from the problems is so slow at the beginning and then at some point it goes over and more problems arise.



I laughed out loud when Dr Evil marched in to show his calculations for Rosita's baby to have catastrophic consequencies sooner than later in his life, when even the said thing was going to born. I don't understand why his woman has to be Rosita?

No sane man can say what will going to happen in the future, because there is no prediction patterns for that. You can estimate things but you cannot be certain. My jaw dropped when Gabriel said: "I'm not the father."

Yet Eugene didn't accept it, and not the fact, that he's isn't baby's father either or that it's not his business to solve Rosita's pants problems. To be honest, if I'd be her partner, I'd have been offended.



I'm going to update my 200 estimation on the troop strength to 250. The Whisperer's can easily over take with those numbers the whole Rickland. There is not going to be a competition. The only choice out from is once again decapitating the leadership, but considering how many of them there really are, not an easy job.

If they have been trekking across the country for six years, it's no wonder how they have grown so large and so capable of surviving in the Wasteland. What I don't get and you see in the picture is how they can make bread, if they don't have fields? Do they grind it? Do they carry flour and yeast with them? Do they just do a harvest and then grind to powder? If so, do they carry the stones with them and how they power the said thing?

Alpha's people challenged her for going back to Lydia. But like any other bad leader, she likes too much her power to be giving it away cleanly. Instead of being like Martha, or Negan, Alpha needed Beta to be intimidating.

I hope that her murdering her opponents opened Henry's eyes to understand what a fool he had been for thinking with Little Henry.



Beta and Alpha are a really weird couple. How did they became an item? Funny thing is Beta does everything Alpha asks. It is like he admires the strength Alpha wields and that he doesn't want to take the responsibility of leading the Whisperers.

Meanwhile, back in Alexandria, it took a sassy six-year-old to make Michonne realize that she had become an isolationist control freak.
You are right, all hail Negan to becoming Judith's stepdad. But knowing that the Whispers are out there is going to be a hard thing, because they might hit just in the wrong time now that Lydia and Henry has been rescued.
 

Dave

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Clever lad, that Daryl
If only Henry had half the sense of Judith!
However, I think you are harsh on Henry in this episode. He was clearly play-acting stupid as part of a capture and infiltration plan (admittedly, that wouldn't be hard for him to do) but he could have been killed several times, so that it took some guts (no pun intended.)

I'm going to update my 200 estimation on the troop strength to 250. The Whisperer's can easily over take with those numbers the whole Rickland. There is not going to be a competition. The only choice out from is once again decapitating the leadership, but considering how many of them there really are, not an easy job.
But there seems to be quite a lot of dissent.... well, two less than there was before today, but I'm guessing there are others keeping their mouths shut. So, given a chance to, many of that 250 might jump ship if promised protection. Those that remain loyal to Alpha might be overcome. However, getting to Alpha and her strong-arm "Beta" would prove difficult, though knocking them out would be key.

If they have been trekking across the country for six years, it's no wonder how they have grown so large and so capable of surviving in the Wasteland. What I don't get and you see in the picture is how they can make bread, if they don't have fields? Do they grind it? Do they carry flour and yeast with them? Do they just do a harvest and then grind to powder? If so, do they carry the stones with them and how they power the said thing?
I think that the making and having babies part (that I mentioned last week) is still harder to fathom.
 
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nixie

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Two villains in the franchise scare me, Martha and now Alpha. I agree there will be others dissenters among the whisperers but can they come together to overthrow Alpha and Beta?
Is the blonde on the Alexendria council originally from the Sanctuary?

I wonder if Michonne's change of heart is out of fear of turning into Negan, he hit an nerve.
 

svalbard

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If only Henry had half the sense of Judith!
However, I think you are harsh on Henry in this episode. He was clearly play-acting stupid as part of a capture and infiltration plan (admittedly, that wouldn't be hard for him to do) but he could have been killed several times, so that it took some guts (no pun intended)
No,no, and no. Henry does not get a pass as easily as that. The kid is a disaster waiting to happen. They might as well call him Jonah.
 

ctg

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No,no, and no. Henry does not get a pass as easily as that. The kid is a disaster waiting to happen. They might as well call him Jonah.
Should we order him a whale?

I wonder if Michonne's change of heart is out of fear of turning into Negan, he hit an nerve.
I think she's wiser than what she lets out, but occasionally she forgets and instead of being a loving and caring mum, she comes out as stubborn, angry lady. Maybe she needs Rick on her side to be able to show that wonderful, charming smile again?

Is the blonde on the Alexendria council originally from the Sanctuary?
The blond lady? I think she was introduced at same time as Sadik and she served in Sanctuary.

So, given a chance to, many of that 250 might jump ship if promised protection.
You mean the two she murdered cannot be the only people feeling the fear for their lives? Thing is how do you go to recruit among them?
 

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You mean the two she murdered cannot be the only people feeling the fear for their lives? Thing is how do you go to recruit among them?
I do and these are people who have been fed lies. Not allowed to get political, but although lies are easier to believe than the truth, you might think that they would be blown away if they found out that you actually can live somewhere safe in one place, get washed and wear clothes, farm, have babies that aren't sacrificed...

I hadn't thought about it, but now you ask it just takes some good marketing. How would I do it? I wouldn't try in person as it is too dangerous. Posters on trees might work but can be ripped down and they don't have a printing facility so it would need a lot of handwritten work. Same problems with a leaflet drop. Loudspeakers would work but they would attract the walking dead very quickly. So, I would go to Hilltop and get that projector. Fix it up with a big screen....
 

ctg

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So, I would go to Hilltop and get that projector. Fix it up with a big screen....
And show what? It's a Wonderful Life? I think you'd either need something shocking, or then you'd need a spy amongst their people, and that spy would have to recruit and seed mistrust amongst the Whisperers. They would have to show that life is better inside the walls than amongst the horde or with the crazy leaders. A successful assassination would certainly throw them in disarray.
 

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So, I would go to Hilltop and get that projector. Fix it up with a big screen....
And show what? It's a Wonderful Life?
:ROFLMAO:

these are people who have been fed lies. Not allowed to get political, but although lies are easier to believe than the truth, you might think that they would be blown away if they found out that you actually can live somewhere safe in one place, get washed and wear clothes, farm, have babies that aren't sacrificed...
Lydia is proof that the promise of a better life can beat brainwashing.
When taken captive, she was convinced that places like Hilltop were doomed to fall. After few days, she was ready to stay.
If Beta could somehow be similarly flipped, the Whisperers might follow the path of the Saviors and be absorbed by the rising new civilization. Alpha may have some loyal followers, but she would not be very formidable without her enforcer.
Her execution of her two challengers was hardly a fair fight. She decapitated the woman from behind, and sucker-stabbed the man while he was still in shock.
When Alpha handed him the severed head, I thought she was going to force him to wear his girlfriend's face as a warning to any others who might want to challenge their inspirational leader.
 
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grip junky

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I do not think it would be hard to turn a bunch of them. They live in debris huts, it is cold and wet here in VA in the winter, it was under 20 when I came into work today. The summers are hot and buggy. They are people, they want something better. I would think people were going u.a. all the time. How would they keep up with more that 100 people (I think they have less). I do not have the advantage of the comics but after seeing their camp I do not think they could be more than 60 strong I still think less. I saw less than 60 in the episode, could be the show is saving cash by not having to pay a bunch of people. I would like to think I would have started a forest fire in the commotion of the rescue. With the debris huts that place is a tinderbox. I have had a lot of fun watching.
 

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I do not think it would be hard to turn a bunch of them. They live in debris huts, it is cold and wet here in VA in the winter, it was under 20 when I came into work today. The summers are hot and buggy. They are people, they want something better
Alpha probably didn't have much of a problem convincing her followers that pretending to be a walker is preferable to being eaten by one, but the whisperers must easily see that living in one of the communities would be a big upgrade to camp life.
I'm wondering, though, just how much walker power the whisperers can harness. If they can control and direct one of the enormous hordes we've seen in earlier episodes, they could easily destroy any of the survivor communities and take whatever they want from the ruins.
 

grip junky

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Alpha probably didn't have much of a problem convincing her followers that pretending to be a walker is preferable to being eaten by one, but the whisperers must easily see that living in one of the communities would be a big upgrade to camp life.
I'm wondering, though, just how much walker power the whisperers can harness. If they can control and direct one of the enormous hordes we've seen in earlier episodes, they could easily destroy any of the survivor communities and take whatever they want from the ruins.
To me that is their true power controlling the walker hordes, but that is when they have surprise. As we saw, the same tactics can be used on them and they have no walls. Two hordes coming together and people fighting in the middle of it that would be crazy. I would think one of the best tactics would be to catch them in a dry place field, woods what ever and start I fire around them and on them.

After you get how to pretend how to move as a walker, why stay with the crazy people?
 

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To me that is their true power controlling the walker hordes, but that is when they have surprise.
An excellent point, of which Alpha must surely be aware.
I'm thinking, though, all surprise tactics aside, that the power of the walkers has always been in their numbers. Human survival chances decrease dramatically as the number of walkers increases.
One walker, no problem. Two, you're a goner if the second one strikes while you're focused on the first. A dozen, you're on the menu. A couple of dozen, bye-bye Shiva. If the Whisperers can deploy a thousand or so dead soldiers, I don't think any of the communities could stand against them.
That leads me to a logistics question: Assuming that the whisperers are able to control a super-horde, they would need to keep tabs on its location. I mean, what do you do with a standing army of walkers when you aren't using them?
Maybe the Whisperers were the real masterminds behind that walker holding pen, the quarry, back in season 6.
 

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This was much better than episode 11 as it focused on the Whisperers. Although there wasn't loads that happened it was very creepy. Proper horror. with the added Beta character too.
I did think the Whisperers would be more cult like in the way a couple of them previously basically left themselves as lambs to the slaughter when they killed Jesus. Would fear alone get such devotion? Actually has every opposing group in TWD been ruled by someone with fear tactics?
I don't think Henry deliberately got captured.
Surely the Whisperers would be very watchful for walkers coming around? The success of this surprise attack puts into question their whole threat.

The bits about the fair are still dragging a little. It seems we are building up to a showdown coming at the fair with Whisperers et al.

Hopefully Eugene wont crack! Again.

I'm impressed with Samantha Morton as Alpha. So different to her various previous roles. Though as an Oscar nominated actress she knows her stuff.
 

ctg

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Would fear alone get such devotion?
It is a good question, but I wouldn't say it's devotion, but something else. Fear is a powerful propaganda tool and it can make you rule over weaker individuals. Although some might get brainwashed, it is more likely to cause hatred. Take for example Immortan Joe



People were scared and they did things, because they feared the consequencies of what would happen if they opposed him. In the same time, they absolutely hated him. If they'd loved him, there would not have been a return to green place, because the people would have strung up Max and rest of his groupies.

Negan tried to rule with fear, but at the end, it cost his people and after he was gone, the Sanctuary fell. There was no fixing anything, because there was too much hate been the people.
 

grip junky

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From what I can tell, from what they have said, the Whisperers pack it up and take off when they are discovered or some one is captured. Not going by that rule is what some of the dissent among the ranks is about. Taking off and coming back in a year or so with a big horde would be the way to go I think.
 
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ctg

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So Eugene's baby charts





Why there is dip in the teenage years and then huge rise when you get to the adulthood? Also the sum on values is 90. So why he really gave up on whole thing?

 
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Dave

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Why there is dip in the teenage years and then huge rise when you get to the adulthood? Also the sum on values is 90. So why he really gave up on whole thing?
You haven't got teenage kids have you? :whistle: Wait and see!

I would have put the initial period much higher with a much lower drop during the terrible two-year olds.

There should be a financial graph too. That would start off high, get higher still and then go totally exponential. Also that one never stops getting higher with marriages to pay for, college fees, help to buy property, money to travel.
 
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ctg

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You haven't got teenage kids have you? :whistle: Wait and see!
I don't have any children. I didn't wanted to get any. My books has been my children. I have tried my best to give them a life, but I feel like I failed.
 

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