His Dark Materials (BBC serial)

[Mouse]

A daemon is physical and visible, but hasn't always existed, so at some point its coming into existence must be observable. I think Mouse's question (apart from the naming bit) is what would that observer see? But Pullman doesn't tell us, as far as I remember (probably wisely).

Yeah, this is what I meant.

 

[williamjm]

What I don't get, is how they're 'born'. I mean, do they pop out along with the human babies? And who names them?

When their human dies we see them disappearing as if they were disintegrating, maybe when they are 'born' the opposite happens and they coalesce out of thin air.

As for the naming I wonder if their human's parents' daemons name them in the same way the parents would name a child. It would seem appropriate if that happened.

I much enjoyed last night's episode, which retains the very high standard.
I'm impressed with how the Will story is being woven in - terrific stuff. Both actors there extremely good.
Pullman wrote TSK in the 1990s when young carers wasn't such an issue in public circles (it was in private lives, of course). I think that shows some of his insight.
Bolvangar looks hideous. Next Sunday's episode is going to be grim.

I thought it was a good episode, it brought a lot more emotion to that part of the story than I remember the movie managing (which generally had the tone of a fun fantasy adventure). It's an interesting departure to have Will brought into the story so much earlier but I thought it was a good introduction and I think it works thematically as a parallel to the storyline in the other world - they're both about people desperately trying to protect their families when they feel the authorities are a threat to them.

 

[REBerg]

The story feels very slow to develop, but it seems to have picked up in the last two episodes.
I suppose having a second, 8-episode season approved at the starting gate allows leeway for a slower pace. It's becoming more interesting, but thus far the series seems more like children's fared than something aimed at general viewership.

Spoiler: 1.05 The Lost Boy

The importance of a bear's relationship to its armour was emphasized in the previous episode, yet when Lyra and Iorek go on their mission, the bear leaves his armour behind. Too heavy to carry with Lyra as a rider? A touch of realism added to the concept of a giant talking bear?

 

[ctg]

Spoiler

Too heavy to carry with Lyra as a rider?

Yeah, too heavy for the long distance running.

 

[tinkerdan]

Having just completed reading the three novels...

The story feels very slow to develop, but it seems to have picked up in the last two episodes.
I suppose having a second, 8-episode season approved at the starting gate allows leeway for a slower pace. It's becoming more interesting, but thus far the series seems more like children's fared than something aimed at general viewership.

Spoiler: 1.05 The Lost Boy

The importance of a bear's relationship to its armour was emphasized in the previous episode, yet when Lyra and Iorek go on their mission, the bear leaves his armour behind. Too heavy to carry with Lyra as a rider? A touch of realism added to the concept of a giant talking bear?

My take on the slow parts, is that there is a lot of world building in the second book that is being peppered into the first five episodes, almost to the point of saying that a majority of the first portion of the second novel has been covered by the fifth episode. My guess is that by the time they reach a point level with the end of the first book they will have at least covered half of the second book.

As to the daemons--having the novel fresh in my head--it seems that Pullman really didn't know what they were himself. He's all over the place in his description.

However, if I were to guess, he eventually narrows down to a place that--having studied a number of Christian off-shoots, myself--often seems under contention. That is that we consist of Body-spirit-soul. Some believe that the spirit and soul are the same some that the spirit and soul are separate.
If I were to guess as, I started a moment ago, most the worlds in the story have spirit and soul as separates and that the spirit is the daemon while the soul is the person within the body. Some worlds the people cannot see or 'manifest' the spirit. At death the spirit returns to--in this case--the dust or dark matter

Spoiler

and this is the actual problem in the story because for some reason the soul should also do this and it is now stuck in its own specific world

.

However often the description in the novels waffles enough that I was left guessing; is the daemon the conscience, or maybe just a moral compass, or perhaps that elusive guardian angel. Or perhaps is it more the ID[Daemon] and the EGO [person].

Anyway another interesting thought is that the body can be burnt to ash. The daemon seems to drift off into the dust.
So it brings new meaning to Ashes to Ashes; Dust to Dust.

The books seem to be highly theological in nature.

 

[ctg]

At death the spirit returns to--in this case--the dust or dark matter

There is a theory that claims, when the death occurs, the body releases gases and these gases goes back to the original source, ie a star. Thus you'll experience nirvana and eventually reincarnation, meaning that when the star explodes, it releases all the matter back to the nature.

Spoiler

and this is the actual problem in the story because for some reason the soul should also do this and it is now stuck in its own specific world

That is the mystery angle, the artistic flair. Pullman could not have known everything, he was following the muse. You cannot blame him for setting rules and then following them as best as he could.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

That's a hypothesis, not a theory.

 

[tinkerdan]

This is where the English is important.

That is the mystery angle, the artistic flair. Pullman could not have known everything, he was following the muse. You cannot blame him for setting rules and then following them as best as he could.

I said in the story-in the novel-the problem(conflict)is that the souls of the dead have been deliberately trapped somewhere.

And here we are again...

That's a hypothesis, not a theory.

With Hypothesis vs Theory

Hypothesis vs. Theory. A hypothesis is either a suggested explanation for an observable phenomenon, or a reasoned prediction of a possible causal correlation among multiple phenomena. In science, a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven factors.

It seems many of us including myself often use Theory in the incorrect way.

This should be added just for edification.

There is a huge difference between theory vs. practice. Theory assumes an outcome, while practice allows you to test the theory and see if it is accurate.

The puzzle being that the former almost gives the impression that theory has already tested to accuracy and yet the latter would seem to suggest that that might not always be the case.[Otherwise why would we test a theory for accuracy.]

Perhaps someone could find better defining words for Hypothesis vs Theory vs Practice.

And:
I'm not even sure this helps overall;

Theory vs. Hypothesis vs. Law… Explained!

Science Connected Magazine is an editorially independent, non-profit newsroom producing open-access science journalism and scientific fact-checking for the global public.

magazine.scienceconnected.org

same--And I have a hypothesis that the glasses are doing nothing for him other than making him look smart.

Be Smart | Theory vs Hypothesis vs Law | Season 3 | Episode 47 | PBS

Think you know the difference?

www.pbs.org

But it does seem to circle around Hypothesis to Theory to Law; yet somehow make you feel like a healthy stack of waffl(ing)es have just been gentled down your gullet.

A bit more....

Hypothesis vs Theory - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

What's the difference between Hypothesis and Theory? A hypothesis is either a suggested explanation for an observable phenomenon, or a reasoned prediction of a possible causal correlation among multiple phenomena. In science, a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a...

www.diffen.com

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Nirvana and reincarnation do not a theory make.

 

[hitmouse]

Theory and hypothesis are terms used somewhat loosely in vernacular conversation. Ideas of metaphysics, knowledge, and fact are core considerations in philosophy, and a short discussion is likely to be unsatisfactory.

In science, a theory is a credible explanation for something that can be objectively tested, and which can potentially be disproved. Many scientists would hold the view of the philosopher Karl Popper that without the potential for falsifiability any assertion of fact is pseudoscience. Nirvana, Reincarnation, number of angels on the head of a pin, are good examples.

I think that including practice in that particular discussion causes confusion. "Theory and practice" is a colloquial way of differentiating what is learnt in the classroom, from what happens in the "real" world, which is often more complex.

 

[tinkerdan]

I hypothesize that the difference between fact-theory-hypothesis, is much more important in science than in this particular discussion.
That makes me wonder if correcting anyone about them is really relevant to the discussion.

 

[Mouse]

And back to the show...

I don't remember the cut daemons being still around after cut away from their humans in the novels. Interesting though. How on earth did Billy Costa get away from that place? I never really thought about it before.

I'm not keen on Iorek's voice at all.

 

[Dave]

The books seem to be highly theological in nature.

Pullman could not have known everything, he was following the muse. You cannot blame him for setting rules and then following them as best as he could.

I've no doubt that you are both fully aware already, but for those that are not, Philip Pullman is a confirmed, and extremely vocal, "Church of England atheist" and "Agnostic," to use his own words. Nothing you see here is not done by design.

Spoiler: Some background with mild spoilers only

If the idea of a separated soul stuck in its own world seems to be absurd then I'm quite sure that is absolutely intentional. Also, that the story has parallels to Narnia (talking animals, doors between alternate worlds, Lyra rather than Lucy, a final battle linked to cosmic consequences.) Pullman himself said, "I hate the Narnia books, and I hate them with a deep and bitter passion, with their view of childhood as a golden age from which sexuality and adulthood are a falling-away."

 

[tinkerdan]

Of interest here is that Billy is taking the place of a different character here.

I don't remember the cut daemons being still around after cut away from their humans in the novels. Interesting though. How on earth did Billy Costa get away from that place? I never really thought about it before.

In the book there was more relevant material revealed at the village that mentions many other children having shown up and each one eventually dies.
It seemed that at some point they were discarded--making the horror of what was done to them worse.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Fantastic sixth episode, gripping, creepy, full of action and detail.
Ruth Wilson continues to shine as Mrs Coulter.
Blimey, I think I'll have to get this on DVD...

 

[Mouse]

Of interest here is that Billy is taking the place of a different character here.

In the book there was more relevant material revealed at the village that mentions many other children having shown up and each one eventually dies.
It seemed that at some point they were discarded--making the horror of what was done to them worse.

That's what I thought happened in the book.

 

[REBerg]

1.06 The Daemon-Cages

I've no doubt that you are both fully aware already, but for those that are not, Philip Pullman is a confirmed, and extremely vocal, "Church of England atheist" and "Agnostic," to use his own words. Nothing you see here is not done by design.

Spoiler

I was struck by Mrs. Coulter's reference to "experimental theology." Stripping souls for evil purposes is not a new concept, but separating body and soul for the "greater good"?
People have often been characterized as soulless, but that has never been a compliment. I can only assume that Mrs. Coulter no longer has a soul and that her companion is not and may never have been a daemon. Has it ever spoken?

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Super-tense Episode 7!
The Will Parry sections were particularly gripping.

 

[Mouse]

Yes, I enjoyed it. Except I thought the bear fight was an anti-climax. They didn't even show the kill.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Just like Pullman didn't show god being killed in book 3. :/