• Published a book you want to tell us about? Uploaded a YouTube video you want to share?

    Normally you'll need 100 posts to self-promote, but with an upgraded membership you can do so with your first post.

    Find out more here: Become a Supporting Member

A map of Yorkshire from 1610.

thaddeus6th

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
6,511
Location
UK, Yorkshire
It's rather nice when you stumble across something and find it very cool.

Like this map of Yorkshire, by John Speed in 1610. Lots of places names are similar, but spelt differently (Bradforth, Halyfax, Hutherfeild). The detail is very attractive, particularly the corners.

Only downside is it's been folded tight for a long time so trying to get it relatively flat was tricky. Anyway, if you're from Yorkshire, might like to try and spot if your town is on here. And, if not, you might still like how nicely drawn it is. The date is within a decade of the union of crowns of England and Scotland, and predates the political union by almost a century. It's just over three decades, I think, before the English Civil War kicked off.
.John Speed Map Full - Copy.JPGJohn Speed Map Lower Left CornerSmaller.jpgJohn Speed Map Lower Right CornerSmaller.jpgJohn Speed Map MorleySmaller.jpgJohn Speed Map North Sea ShipSmaller.jpgJohn Speed Map Upper Right CornerSmaller.jpg
 

M. Robert Gibson

I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that
Supporter
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Messages
483
Location
Discovery One
Of relevance to me are Middleburgh and Growmond, both of which now have different names.
NENorthYorkshire.png
 

Brian G Turner

Fantasist & Futurist
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Messages
22,761
Location
Highlands

thaddeus6th

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
6,511
Location
UK, Yorkshire
Graymalkin, I think so. They're really small, though, maybe a few millimetres each.

Wapentakes:
List of wapentakes in Yorkshire - Wikipedia

I know Ridings come from Viking terms, as the south has Hundreds, but I'm not sure if Wapentakes are Saxon or Viking in origin.

Annoyingly, I'm sure there's a weird clergy title, from Yorkshire, which is similarly strange and enchanting but can't recall it.
 

The Judge

Truth. Order. Moderation.
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
10,309
Location
nearly the New Forest
I don't know about the Langrargh, but I imagine wapontak or its cognates would once have been common in Yorkshire at least, since it must surely be a corruption of wapentake which was a division of a riding, equivalent to a hundred down here in the south. I'd thought it was definitely where men were mustered as a prelude to armed combat -- ie weapon-take or count -- but I see Etymology Online says Perhaps it originally was an armed muster with inspection of weapons, or else an assembly where consent was expressed by brandishing swords and spears.

Its most famous outing must be in 1066 And All That with this "memorable fragment" of an "Old-Saxon" poem

Syng a song of Saxons​
In the Wapentake of Rye​
Four and twenty eaoldermen​
To eaold to die...​
:D

EDIT: bugger. Thad beat me to it!

As to it derivation, Etymology Online says:

division of certain English counties (equivalent to a hundred in other places), Old English wæpengetæc "division of a riding," from Old Norse vapnatak, from vapna, genitive plural of vapn "weapon" (see weapon) + tak "a touching, a taking hold, a grasping," from taka "to take, grasp," from Proto-Germanic *tak- (see take (v.))
 

nixie

pixie druid
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
5,165
Location
I may live in Yorkshire but I'm a Scot
Stainforth, where I live is spelt slightly different d not th at end. I noticed Thorne, Hatfield, and Kirk Sandall still have same spelling.

Kirk Sandall I thought was a relatively new village, was surprised to find it. Hatfield on the other has a lot of history attached, there used to be a Royal Hunting lodge there dating back to 11/12 century.
 

nixie

pixie druid
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
5,165
Location
I may live in Yorkshire but I'm a Scot
Ah sorry just had another look Thorne is spelt Therne and Kirk Sandall is Kirkfandall.

Again I need to check more both Hatfield and Kirk Sandall date back to Anglo Saxon times.
 
Last edited:

thaddeus6th

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
6,511
Location
UK, Yorkshire
Nixie, the 'f' might really be an 's', due to a fancier way of writing of writing 'f' that's sometimes used. Check the second image (lower left corner) which has the S of John Speed written as we would now, but the S of 'sold' makes it look like 'folde'.
 

The Judge

Truth. Order. Moderation.
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
10,309
Location
nearly the New Forest
I was just coming to confirm the f/s thing!

Re the wapentake, in case anyone's interested, Collins online has (oddly, only in connection with the American definition, not the English) prob. used territorially from ceremony in which vassals touched the raised spear of the lord with their own as token of submission

As for the maps themselves, we've got a couple of jigsaws** based on John Speed maps. The Hampshire one appears to be undated, but the Sussex one is from his 1610 map. Not as lovely as seeing an original or early reproduction, of course, but still fascinating reading all the place names!

To add to Thad's putting the maps in historical context, 1610 is only 7 years after the death of Elizabeth, and 5 years after the Gunpowder Plot.


** yes, we're very boring.
 

nixie

pixie druid
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
5,165
Location
I may live in Yorkshire but I'm a Scot
Nixie, the 'f' might really be an 's', due to a fancier way of writing of writing 'f' that's sometimes used. Check the second image (lower left corner) which has the S of John Speed written as we would now, but the S of 'sold' makes it look like 'folde'.
Yes I've had a closer look, Thorne is spelt correctly I think the Therne Mere is the Moors. Also looking I think Thorne may have been in a different riding from the rest of Doncaster.
I really need to get a new computer, the phone doesn't zoom in enough.
I've only just found Fishlake and Sykehouse.
 
Last edited:

thaddeus6th

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
6,511
Location
UK, Yorkshire
As an aside, I looked for Leeds and struggled to find it. However, that's because there are two Morleys. The other one is a little north-eastish of the one I centred one picture on, and 'Ledes' is a bit to the north of that (the name is bisected by a river).

Interesting it's not larger, given the 1670 population stat (from Ian Mortimer's Time Traveller's Guide to Restoration Britain) put it in the top 15 or so nationwide.

TJ, I'm not any sort of cartographer but it'd be interesting to know how old the map actually is. The paper's sort of mottled, and it feels fairly old, but obviously artificial effects could produce that. The size is a little odd, each half is a little bigger (I think) than A4.
 

Graymalkin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
Messages
305
Graymalkin, I think so. They're really small, though, maybe a few millimetres each.
those could be the Yorkshire bonzai ;)

I wondered if the ribbons might indicate hunting forests, or deer park, some of which were physically hedged and later, fenced in. Mebbes. Mebbes not. great quality map though. I've got a copy of a local 1636 estate map that looks like it was drawn after eating the wrong kind of fungi.

I imagine wapontak or its cognates would once have been common in Yorkshire at least, since it must surely be a corruption of wapentake which was a division of a riding, equivalent to a hundred down here in the south. I'd thought it was definitely where men were mustered as a prelude to armed combat -- ie weapon-take or count -- but I see Etymology Online says Perhaps it originally was an armed muster with inspection of weapons, or else an assembly where consent was expressed by brandishing swords and spears.
Definitely. Without being able to offer an individual reference I'm sure I've come across accounts of redrawn/negotiated land boundary lines being sealed with that kind of ceremony. and that Wapontake stems from the area a given band were legally allowed to brandish arms without it being an offence to their neighbours. Beating the bounds was a slightly less martial development of this.

Local tradition has it, the Penny Hedge ceremony in Whitby stems from the dying wish of a 11th or 12thC monk, killed by local landowners for giving sanctuary to a boar and so interfering with their hunting. But it's also speculated to be a leftover example of the practice of hedge laying at the boundaries of deer park and Wapontakes. Having to do it in the sand and between tides definitely smacks of punishment. Lucky for the modern hedge layers, they don't have to cut and carry the timber from a specific valley miles inland.
 

The Judge

Truth. Order. Moderation.
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
10,309
Location
nearly the New Forest
TJ, I'm not any sort of cartographer but it'd be interesting to know how old the map actually is. The paper's sort of mottled, and it feels fairly old, but obviously artificial effects could produce that. The size is a little odd, each half is a little bigger (I think) than A4.
Can't help with that at all. I know absolutely nothing about paper size down the ages and how to tell how old paper is, so couldn't even hazard a guess. If you do find out, let us know!

Great find. What are those ribbons? Are they surrounding trees?
I've just cottoned on to what you meant here. Or what I think you meant. These things?

1540470334923.png


I'm pretty sure they're fences, and the triffid things inside are indeed trees, and they signify someone's landed estate -- you'll see at the top in the fourth image one is actually labelled Denholme Park.


EDIT: and again I'm too late answering a question!
 

Graymalkin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
Messages
305
Yes those things. Closer up and I can see they're fences now. thanks for the zoom in. :giggle:
 

M. Robert Gibson

I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that
Supporter
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Messages
483
Location
Discovery One
How did we lose such a brilliant name?
And then you study the whole map and find Yorkshire is covered in Wapontaks, Wapents, Wapentakes, Wapons - obviously no spelling and grammar checkers in those days ;)
 
Top