8.16: The Walking Dead - Wrath

ctg

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#1

Michonne and some poor Savior (Photo by Gene Page/AMC)

The communities join forces in the last stand against the Saviors as all-out war unfolds.
This episode is 70 minutes long, with commercials, according to AMC's schedule.
 

REBerg

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#2
Rick has made a big mistake in deciding to save Negan.
Condemning Negan to life in a cell, forcing him to watch the survivors achieve prosperity through peaceful cooperation, hardly seems like a fitting punishment for his heinous crimes. Rick's made an enemy of Maggie, who's off to a great start with Daryl and Jesus as her lieutenants in plans to depose Rick.
I suppose the decision to keeping Negan is a good plot hook for next season. It's a pity that slashing his throat apparently did no damage to his vocal cords.
Cheers for Eugene, who completely redeemed himself with his devious, faulty ammunition manufacturing skills. I loved how his readmission to the group was sealed by Rosita's punch to the face in retaliation for Eugene's puke-fueled escape last episode. The entire line of Saviors going down when their guns exploded in their hands was a great moment.
 

ctg

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#3
Condemning Negan to life in a cell, forcing him to watch the survivors achieve prosperity through peaceful cooperation, hardly seems like a fitting punishment for his heinous crimes. Rick's made an enemy of Maggie, who's off to a great start with Daryl and Jesus as her lieutenants in plans to depose Rick.
Yeah, it really riles against everything, but at the end it was Rick, who made that possible. Carl only aided him to reach that conclusion and Dr Evil might have pushed the final bit by sabotaging the ammunition. If they had fought Negan's final group, I don't think life sparing moment could had come in question. Not with Negan and not with Eugene. They both would have had to go or then the show would have transformed to Negan's show, which in a way would have interesting, but I for one would not had watched it.

Rosita's punch to the face in retaliation for Eugene's puke-fueled escape last episode.
Well, it was kind of satisfactory, but not complete. I just cannot stomach the whole betrayal angle as from now on I'm going to be suspicious about all his activities. How many people died or suffered, because of what he did? The hundred men on top of the hill are only added to the long list of people, who could had done better if Abraham had mashed his face on the road to Alexandria.

I'm afraid one punch wasn't much of punishment for his redemption. He has to do something better. Just like Dwight. In fact, Dwight worked his *ss off for saving Rick's people once he realised that there was not going to be future, certainly not peace with Negan in charge.

When Rick saved Negan in the original run, it made more sense, because killing didn't fit his character. The telephone people had made it clear. He needed to achieve peace, because killing would have doomed all of them and all that war they went through would had been for nothing.

Killing Negan would had fit this version of Rick so much better, because it would have been right for all that trouble. Afterwards he could had done the old man speech and swear the people to accept peace, before he would step as their leader for being so much like Negan.

Ricknation isn't going to survive with him in the charge. So Maggie is right. Ricknation would be better if it was in hands of Maggie or King Ezekiel. I don't know how Oceanside is going to survive at the Sanctuary or how Alexandria will be built. All I know is that we lost Morgan for the boogie men and he did right when he exiled himself for the long walk across the country.
 

nixie

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#4
Eugene, I know some theorized about him sabotaging the bullets but I really didn't see it coming. I thought he was completely Negan, I'm still trying too process it.

Bad mistake keeping Negan alive, Maggie will be a better leader than Rick although I don't want their relationship destroyed.

Will be interesting to see how Jadis and her transformation too Anne progresses.
 

svalbard

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#5
Eugene sabotaging the guns was a genuine twist and he has found redemption in my eyes

I hope Dwight finds his wife(can't remember her name). His character arc was really interesting.

Whilst I applaud Rick's take on justice and how it is a starting point to show the communities that law and order is one of the foundations of civilisation I would still have executed Negan. Law and order and justice can come later.

Maggie, Jesus and Daryl haven't a chance going up against Rick if they decide to go down that road. Daryl has already shown his ineptitude at the initial siege of the Sanctuary, Jesus is just too soft. Maggie is the only one of them who has it in her to actually challenge Rick. But he has shown time and time again that he is one ruthless son of a you know what when you come for him.
 

ctg

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#6
Eugene, I know some theorized about him sabotaging the bullets but I really didn't see it coming. I thought he was completely Negan, I'm still trying too process it.
Eugene sabotaging the guns was a genuine twist and he has found redemption in my eyes
Dr Evil's motivation to do that after he escaped Daryl's and Rosita's trap is problematic. If he really thought about switching sides, why he showed temper to Gabriel and threatened to shoot him, when he escaped? It just doesn't make sense. If he has good brain why he couldn't convince Rick's side that everything is going to be all right because he has a plan? His actions on the small screen convinced a lot of people that he'd gone completely Negan.

Also how do you convince hundred people to not do practice shoots before the actual firing happens? If I were recalled back into service I'd want to make sure my gun was zeroed before I would go to a mission. Saviors didn't show that they had an armorer as the weapons weren't centrally stored, maintained and issued to Negan's people. So making sure that your gun is shooting straight is important thing, when you grab gun from unknown pile. Is that a practice people have forgotten in the apocalypse?
 

ctg

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#7
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So when Rick is telling Negan all about Carl’s amazing vision for the future, that’s all just a ruse to slit his throat, right?
SCOTT M. GIMPLE:
It is a ploy, as we saw him have a similar ploy with Morgan in the bar. That said, he said that out loud and heard the words that he said. He was making a play and it was in the name of his son, and is there some piece of Carl or Rick within himself that when you put air to those words, that it affects him, and there is a subliminal purpose to that?

So what then causes him to change his mind? Is it saying the words out loud? Is it slicing Negan’s neck and realizing, I don’t have the satisfaction I thought I had? Is it Negan’s words after that? Is it turning around and seeing everybody behind him watching. Is it all of these things?
In my mind, it’s saying those words out loud, it’s hearing those words, it’s going through with the play and seeing what he did. And really being faced with a choice and choosing what his son wanted. Did Carl’s words come back to haunt him? I think he just went too far by invoking those words and doing what he did. He cornered himself. He was using his son’s last wishes to get his revenge. He couldn’t go through with it, but is there something inside him that knew that? And really, was there any way to stop Negan without incapacitating him severely?

And even going further, you can even go a little darker to subliminal wishes: Did he do it and say “fix him” and then be like, “Wellllll, if it doesn’t work out, I gave it a shot.” There’s a lot going on there. But I think emotionally he went too far, but maybe something inside him knew he had to do that to get to where he needed to be.

When did Eugene make the decision to sabotage the bullets, which ultimately turned the tide in the war? He’s gone back and forth a bit for a while, but when did he ultimately pick his side?
See, I feel he didn’t go back and forth as much as he was just conflicted. He was all-in on being a Savior and being Negan’s lieutenant, but he couldn’t sleep, he was needing to drink to go to sleep, he was haunted by things, which is not who he is. He’s very much, “Well, I did this to survive.” But it was weighing upon him. And his experience with Rosita definitely turned the key for him as far as what he was ultimately going to do in the end.

So it was the puke?
[Laughs] Actually, it’s just because he felt really badly about the puke. That’s where he crossed the line — assaulting someone with his own vomit just was too much. Really, it was Abraham and it was Rosita that forever infected him with humanity and however much he tried not to be a part of the human race, he’s in it.
'The Walking Dead' showrunner on what DIDN'T make it into the finale

Lincoln spoke with ComicBook.com in an exclusive interview following Episode 8x16, explain The Walking Dead is "a story about love rather than hate." In fact, Lincoln claims such themes have "always been in [The Walking Dead's] genetics, been in the DNA of our show from the very first frame.”

It also happens to following its comic book source material in preserving Negan's life.

While Carl's death was certainly a catalyst in Rick's decision on the TV series, it wasn't the only factor which saved Negan from Rick's wrath. “I think we’re telling a story about restraint rather than revenge," Lincoln said. "We’re telling a story about a love between a father and a son not a hatred between two old men and I think it’s that simple. It’s self-explanatory. It’s in the episode."

Lincoln can identify the key moments which lead to Rick's decision in the Season Eight finale. "There are many leading up to it, of course," Lincoln said. "Daryl’s trying to get him to open up at the grave site, Michonne encouraging him to read the letter, then there’s Morgan pulling out after the massacre in Episode 8x14, when he says, ‘Why did you save me? Your son was there.’ ‘Because my son was there,’ he says is why."

From there, Rick may have feared becoming everything he thought he was standing against. "I think Rick realizes in these points of darkness and trauma and grief, killing ain’t gonna take the pain away," Lincoln said. "Revenge isn’t gonna do it. When he slits his throat and he says, ‘The boy didn’t know a damn thing, there’s that common knowledge that Negan says he’s appalled. He says, ‘You just used your son’s name in order to kill me!’ And he recognizes himself in Rick’s actions and it’s only at that point that Rick realizes how far he’s gone and where he’s headed if he continues that way.”
Andrew Lincoln Explains Why Rick Didn't Kill Negan On 'The Walking Dead'
 

Gnrevolution

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#8
I don't have a problem with what Eugene did, everything he did was to ensure that Negan had complete trust in him. He had to look like he was Negan's man through and through or it just wouldn't have worked. If he carried on escaping with Rosita / Daryl then he couldn't finish his plan, he had to stay with Negan until the last moment. My only slight gripe here is that this plan wouldn't have worked if a single saviour had fired a single gun any time after they left. Just one. That's all it would have taken to undo the whole plan. Bit lucky, but there you go.

What I didn't buy was Rick's sudden change in attitude. He has had no problem killing every saviour in sight (even ones that helped him), but when confronted with Negan, and after he had even slashed his throat, he suddenly decides he should live? To me this smacks of them needing an adversary next season and using Negan to foster one in Maggie and company. Not that I buy that either, it just feels so forced! And when it all goes to pot, so too goes the redemption arc for Negan.
 

grip junky

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#9
I am not sure why people think Maggie would be a better leader than Rick. Rick is doing a fine job the way I see it. So I would be going with rick back to Alexandria. Maggie will be leading back at the hill top. The real question is, will Rick fight to keep Negan alive, why would he? When Maggie comes for Negan why would he not just give him to her? Will Jesus go alone with her plans? That does not seem like him. I like this past show, they got very lucky that they did not use the old rounds they had first.
 

Judderman

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#10
Jesus has been awol from the show for a while but was back again as if he never disappeared. Why on earth would he be siding with the view that Negan should be killed? He was only just telling Morgan he doesn't need to kill people. I presume some of Maggie/Jesus/Daryl will die in trying to kill Negan/defying Rick.

I agree that having all but one gun be sabotaged but not noticed is absurd. It seems Rosita's words were enough to make Eugene doublecross Negan. And perhaps he had run out of wine.. Also Rick's constant mind changing doesn't quite work. These days the show does some surprises but they often aren't believable.

This episode was good ignoring the above criticisms, but not really worth the wait during poor episodes. Also the evidence of big change to come in season 9 that Gimple talked about isn't that obvious. There wasn't actually a single death of significance in this episode which was a surprise in a way. And Alexandria and Hilltop are still there to be lived in. It was good to see Eugene turn the tables, but a bit of a shame that then there was barely any exciting action as things swung so rapidly.
 

paranoid marvin

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#11
Why does Rick keep Negan alive? Probably because of the letter his son wrote asking him to make peace. Killing Negan would be like Rick denyong his son's dying request.

But he should have killed him; not in vengence for all he has done, but to give the Saviours a release from their leader with no fear of possible later retribution. Also because Negan is trouble and will almost certainly cause more death and heartache in the future - they're never going to be able to lock him up forever. Probably would have been better to put him on trial. That way everyone is satisfied.
 

ctg

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#12
Probably would have been better to put him on trial. That way everyone is satisfied.
Who would be the judge? Or the prosecutor or even wanting to give him defence? Thing is it would have been more satisfying and certainly more proper on putting him in hard labour position than lock him in the cell Morgan built in the Alexandria. Being a full time prisoner is actually luxury position in the apocalyptic times. Think about all that upkeep and service one is going to get at that cell. I would assume that there are now around 120 - 150 people in the Ricknation at this current point. It's not much when a lot people are going to be need to tend the farms, because they don't farm any farm animals. No horses. Tractors are going to need mechanics, spare parts and petrol products to run. How much of that is readily available?
 

ctg

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#13
The Walking Dead Season Eight finale pried the good guys to tear themselves apart from the inside in Season Nine but Norman Reedus promises that might not be the case.

The Daryl Dixon actor took to Twitter on Tuesday to calm the storm of fans who thought his character might become a villain. After all, he was a part of a conversation conspiring to take down Rick when the time his right, as a means to right his wrong decision of keeping Negan alive.

"No, I'm not turning on brother Rick," Reedus wrote. "Everyone chill."
'The Walking Dead's Norman Reedus Addresses If Daryl Is Turning On Rick
 

ctg

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#15
Looks like Norm punched a big hole in the showrunners' season end teaser. I wonder if he got a scolding for that. :)
Nope. He has a publicist and this might have been commissioned by the AMC as part of the TWD publicity campaign.
 

Judderman

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#16
It’s weird how Jesus persuaded Morgan not to kill people like it was a new idea. It means Morgan is doing exactly what he was just over a season ago when refusing to kill anybody! :D
 

ctg

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#17
It’s weird how Jesus persuaded Morgan not to kill people like it was a new idea. It means Morgan is doing exactly what he was just over a season ago when refusing to kill anybody!
I think Jesus never knew Morgan. He simply didn't had time to invest into knowing the story behind the man who saved Rick. People are like that. They think they know better then the person in the situation. It's a normal thing nobody really talks about.
 

Culhwch

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#18
Alright, finally finished this season.

It ended better than I thought it would, though it all wrapped up so quickly that I'm not convinced they really earned the resolution. But I've been banging on about lazy writing for most of this season so I'll avoid banging that drum again.

I'm glad Rick is coming back from the brink, and I'm optimistic that the next season will be a more positive experience. But then again it does look like Maggie might simply be taking on that 'vengeance at all costs' role. I agree that I have no idea why Jesus is involved in her council though - seems so far out of character for him. Maybe they wanted more than her and Darryl, but couldn't come up with anyone else who'd be up for it so drew a name from a hat? Still, at this point Jesus seems like one of the people least likely to want to execute Negan.

I'm also disappointed Negan didn't die, but at least his inexhaustible luck finally ran out. For now...
 

ctg

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#19
I'm also disappointed Negan didn't die, but at least his inexhaustible luck finally ran out. For now...
One day people of the Ricknation will find his zombified head in stake out the Hilltop. Nobody knows who did it. There is no police department and Rick cannot be it, because he's the Ricktator. :giggle:
 

Culhwch

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#20
Rick should go back to being just a cop. They need a council to lead them, with reps from each colony. Ezekial, Jesus (Maggie is too far gone), Michonne, that lead girl from Oceanside, and anyone other than Neck Tattoo from the Sanctuary. Or even hold elections! If they devolve back into Rick leading a war against a new big bad I'll be disappointed.

Also found it interesting that Negan had cleaned Lucille thoroughly before the final show down - not a trace of zombie blood on it when he hit Rick. Seemed very odd.
 

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