Star Trek - Discovery - 1.10: Despite Yourself

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John J. Falco
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Copying @Cathbad's thread formats.

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Creating topic, remember you
can only discuss this episode
inside this topic. Reviews of
the episode are encouraged
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First Shown 1/07/18 (Su.) 8:30 PM CBSAA
 

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John J. Falco
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How long will they be in the mirror universe? I think they should stay there! That would be really cool. Fans love the Mirror Universe and it would be interesting to see more of it. Plus it would help with some of the Discovery inconsistencies in the timeline. Usually it's just a few episodes.

I am still in shock over the doctor and seeing Defiant. My heart literally jumped. Poor Stamets.

Tyler was changed. That theory ended up being right! Fun seeing Captain Killy, and Burnham getting her ship. Bets on if she chooses to stay in the mirror even if they find a way to get home? She looked so badass in the captain's chair. She's already a mutineer in her universe, so why not stay?

Who is the emperor?
 
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Alexa

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I don't like mirror universes. They are usually strange and make no sense with the other episodes.

My mind is all fuzzy since the moment I've realised Tyler is not Tyler. He is a freaking klingon ! :eek: I hope he will be killed in this universe and his alter ego will replace him on Discovery.
 

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I don't like mirror universes. They are usually strange and make no sense with the other episodes.

My mind is all fuzzy since the moment I've realised Tyler is not Tyler. He is a freaking klingon ! :eek: I hope he will be killed in this universe and his alter ego will replace him on Discovery.

If Tyler is Klingon than his alter ego will be Klingon, therefore, can't be on Discovery. It's gonna be scary for him to see what he really looks like.
 

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You believe there was no real human prisoner Tyler ?

I think they transformed him into a human for espionage purposes. Why else would he need a new spinal cord and personality? And why else would he be speaking Klingon?
 

Cathbad

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I am both highly impressed - and very p*ssed!

I cannot believe they killed the Doctor!! I loved that character!

Of course there was a prisoner named Tyler: If they wanted to pass this Klingon off as a human Federation Officer, they would need to replace him for one! So they stole Tyler's memories, surgically altered the agent (that looked painful), and killed the original Tyler!

@Alexa 's idea of the Alternate Universe Tyler replacing him on our Discovery has merits! It would be a way of keeping what has become a popular character. There will be, of course, some time needed for his retraining (it would help if he turns out to be a rebel in the Mirror Universe).

One poor visual - the arrival of the Shenjo (sp) - looked so bad, I cursed out loud. Though their artists seem to suck, the construction crews excel - the interiors of the ships are truly awesome!
 

Vince W

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Now it's Star Trek: Game of Thrones. I think the series has really stepped in it now. The whole Klingon storyline wasn't working, so lets change to the Mirrorverse. Raving mad Terran Empire and murder at every turn. Clearly they couldn't work the show ending as it was so now they've ramped up the 'adult' nature for the rest of the series. I don't think I care any more.
 

Cathbad

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Not working? Wow. It's been very successful. If they did only the Klingon storyline, it wouldn't be very "Star Trek'y". And I think I'd get bored. I'm quite happy with the direction of the series! :D

Clearly they couldn't work the show ending

Um... it's a series. I'm betting the writers are hoping they're never asked to write an "ending".
 

Vince W

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They've stated from the beginning that this series was a single 15 episode arc. So that arc would have an ending. Or at least it should.
 

Dave

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Tyler was changed. That theory ended up being right!
Both the conspiracy theories are true! Tyler is a physically and mentally altered-Klingon sleeper spy, and Lorca did deliberately alter the navigation of the Spore Drive to take them to the Mirror universe - he let that slip when he was alone talking to Burham when he said something like, I didn't expect us to end up here and Burham does the quizzical Vulcan eyebrow thing back.
I don't like mirror universes. They are usually strange and make no sense with the other episodes.
The Mirror Universe episodes have actually all been quite consistent and we have now seen the same Mirror universe in Enterprise, TOS and DS9. Although highly unlikely in reality, I think this must be the same Mirror universe again because it seems consistent with the other visits - except for the uniforms. I'm not sure how they would change so much in ten years from what the women were wearing here to Uhura's uniform.

I am still in shock over the doctor...
I cannot believe they killed the Doctor!! I loved that character!
I was shocked by that too. It does serve to emphasise that they aren't messing around with the Tyler story-line though. He is a serious loose canon and security risk.
Who is the emperor?
I don't think we ever found out. Maybe this time we will.

How long will they be in the mirror universe? I think they should stay there! That would be really cool. Fans love the Mirror Universe and it would be interesting to see more of it.
Like @Cathbad I would also be happy with that, although I expect many people would not.
Plus it would help with some of the Discovery inconsistencies in the timeline.
People keep talking about all the "mistakes" with plotting and canon and why the Discovery or the Spore Drive isn't around ten years later. Many of the so-called "mistakes" have already been explained. They were at War, which is different to peace-time, and Discovery is a more modern ship than the Constitution class (Defiant and Enterprise.) The Spore Drive clearly is unsafe, and it cannot work, and if they stay in the Mirror Universe that pretty much clears up the rest. This was obviously planned from the very beginning and I have to congratulate them for such detail.

Now it's Star Trek: Game of Thrones. I think the series has really stepped in it now. The whole Klingon storyline wasn't working, so lets change to the Mirrorverse. Raving mad Terran Empire and murder at every turn. Clearly they couldn't work the show ending as it was so now they've ramped up the 'adult' nature for the rest of the series. I don't think I care any more.
I can accept you don't want or like this turn, but I believe it was written from the start - very carefully too as I have already pointed out. I don't think they could ever have written this 'on the hoof' and got it to work so well. We also know that it was in "development hell" (a term @Cathbad doesn't like but is commonly used) with many different writers and directors before they got started. Usually that results in a mess (too many cooks) but I'm impressed with what came out of that here as it seems they threw everything together into the pot.

@Alexa 's idea of the Alternate Universe Tyler replacing him on our Discovery has merits! It would be a way of keeping what has become a popular character. There will be, of course, some time needed for his retraining (it would help if he turns out to be a rebel in the Mirror Universe).
That is a great idea, and you realise that they could also replace Dr. Culber in the same way and since...
he actually says he will return 'Star Trek: Discovery': Wilson Cruz Says Dr. Culber Will Return | Inverse this looks like the Mirror Universe Doctor will make an appearance.
 

ralphkern

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Very much enjoyed this episode.

With a little luck, they'll stay in the mirror universe for some time as it will give the show a different kind of edge. Also lets them pull off larger scale events without affecting continuity.

Things I'm looking forward too:

1. Who is the Emperor?
The fact they've kept it a bit mysterious with saying noone's seen him or her suggests there will be a reveal. Michelle Yeaogh (sp?) would be one contender. One of the Admirals perhaps? (Either the one whose been killed, or the one who was captured). Having done a bit of googling, wasn't the Defiant stolen by one of Star Trek Enterprises crew?

Enterprise was set in 2155
Discovery was set in 2256

Maybe with longevity handwavium, it might be interesting to see that character come back along with being fan service done right. I do recall Archer being mentioned in Star Trek 11 as potentially still being around so it is at least a possibility.

2. Getting to the Defiant
It would be very interesting to see the old original series ships next to the new ones. In theory, I guess it should be more powerful than the Discovery and perhaps make for a nice 'Boss Battle'.

3. Where the Tyler arc is going to go
Well, my sympathy for him went out of the window this episode while still appreciating he is a sympathetic character.
 

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John J. Falco
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Very much enjoyed this episode.

With a little luck, they'll stay in the mirror universe for some time as it will give the show a different kind of edge. Also lets them pull off larger scale events without affecting continuity.

Things I'm looking forward too:

1. Who is the Emperor?

If they bring Hoshi back... They said she ruled for 100 years and then Spock took over.
 
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Of course there was a prisoner named Tyler: If they wanted to pass this Klingon off as a human Federation Officer, they would need to replace him for one! So they stole Tyler's memories, surgically altered the agent (that looked painful), and killed the original Tyler!

@Alexa 's idea of the Alternate Universe Tyler replacing him on our Discovery has merits! It would be a way of keeping what has become a popular character. There will be, of course, some time needed for his retraining (it would help if he turns out to be a rebel in the Mirror Universe).

I have a very hard time believing that a human will go along with a Klingon's plan, especially in that time period. It also wouldn't make sense as to why he was a prisoner. If he was a human first who just got altered, why would he be a prisoner? Why wouldn't the Klingons welcome him with open arms? Why would he and L'Rell have to work in secret?

I have a much easier time believing that a Klingon would want to masquerade as a human for honor or to get his honor back AKA Voq!!!!!
 

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Both the conspiracy theories are true! Tyler is a physically and mentally altered-Klingon sleeper spy, and Lorca did deliberately alter the navigation of the Spore Drive to take them to the Mirror universe - he let that slip when he was alone talking to Burham when he said something like, I didn't expect us to end up here and Burham does the quizzical Vulcan eyebrow thing back.

I also caught that. It bring back a point I was making in the fall. Discovery couldn't have sent back the Klingon specs for the cloaking device, and they won't.
 

ralphkern

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I actually hope they go with this:

From Star Trek Wiki

The story of Empress Sato's reign is told in the story "Age of the Empress". The ENT-era story is based on a story outline written by former Enterprise producer and "In a Mirror, Darkly" writer Mike Sussman.

In The Sorrows of Empire, the Sato dynasty continued for more than a century through the use of binary clones of the original Empress Sato, so that the rulers of the Terran Empire would forever have her face; the third Empress Sato commented that she and her "sister", Empress Sato II, were "nothing more than copies of the biggest narcissist in galactic history". The dynasty would end with the death of Empress Sato III and her entire imperial guard (courtesy of the Tantalus field) in 2277, paving the way for Spock's ascension as the Emperor of the Terran Empire.
 

Cathbad

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I have a very hard time believing that a human will go along with a Klingon's plan, especially in that time period. It also wouldn't make sense as to why he was a prisoner. If he was a human first who just got altered, why would he be a prisoner? Why wouldn't the Klingons welcome him with open arms? Why would he and L'Rell have to work in secret?

I have a much easier time believing that a Klingon would want to masquerade as a human for honor or to get his honor back AKA Voq!!!!!

The human Tyler is dead. This Tyler is an altered Klingon - as the Doctor suggested, before he was killed.
 

Dave

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I'm happy with that too. It takes Discovery in a direction that will not spoil canon, and it is new and unpredictable. One of my big problems with sequels is the constraints they place on the story. You either need to retcon the existing story, or else everyone knows what is going to happen in the end (of course you can do that in an imaginative way like Back to the Future 2.) This Mirror Universe idea has great potential and, crucially, no one knows how it will end.

However, I'm sure that @Vince W won't be the only person who dislikes the idea. They are taking a gamble that enough fans will like this idea, and not like the person in our poll thread who is immediately cancelling their subscription to CBS (even if they won't admit who they were.)

I'd be happy with Hoshi Sato as Emperor but I think it is more likely to be Philippa Georgiou. That would explain now why such a huge back-story was provided for a character who was killed off in the second episode.

That link to the article at JohnJFalco.com - it said much the same as we have, but there were a few more things that I had forgotten about or had never considered - the alternative Stamets in the bathroom mirror, Lorca's eye drops, how Lorca doesn't seem to want Stamets to recover, how useful the cloaking device will be to the Terran Empire in the Mirror Universe, and what will be the fate of Saru in this Mirror Universe.

Lorca could easily be from the Mirror Universe - supposed to be dead there, but body never recovered - supposed to have had a relationship with the Admiral here, but she thought he had changed (the gun under the pillow was still excessive unless you are concerned that people from another universe might suddenly appear in you bedroom.)
 
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