14th Female Doctor for the wrong reason not the right

SilentRoamer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
1,161
#81
While I see the merit in wanting original strong female characters and share the desire, I don't think this is as politically problematic as you think. It really depends on how it is framed within the universe and so far, the gender change has been rather ignored.
In this instance I don't think the problem is as pronounced because of the fluid (how woke am I) way the DR can regenerate. Having a female Iron Man or a female Thor though is just co-opting a character IMO.

I think original and powerful stories for female leads already exist and more are being written everyday. and I welcome more of it.
 

The Big Peat

Darth Buddha
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Messages
1,783
#83
I think original and powerful stories for female leads already exist and more are being written everyday. and I welcome more of it.
While I greatly favour original stories, the general mood of screen mass media seems to be for rewrites, revivals, remakes and all other forms of mining the already popular. And I do not think there's enough popular original and powerful stories for female leads as things stand.
 

thaddeus6th

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
6,138
Location
UK, Yorkshire
#85
Mouse, true that there are many male protagonists, but not many that are (or were, anyway) pacifists.

I think a better way of achieving diversity in role models is through new characters. Ripley, Janeway, Samantha Carter etc etc. Diversity isn't replacing white male protagonists but adding new and varied leading roles. (Not to mention, the Doctor's daughter, now apparently thrown away as a concept, would've been an ideal way of achieving much the same).

I'm not too fussed on the Doctor, perhaps because I stopped watching a few episodes into Capaldi's time, but I think those who disagree with it have a legitimate perspective.
 

Matteo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
223
#86
I mentioned the episode to a friend of mine last night. I was pretty sure her husband would have watched it and so it was likely she would have as well.

Turned out he thought it was "OK", but she didn't like it - as this is a family friendly forum I can't quote her exactly...

She also had views on the Doctor being female. Again, I won't quote her but she did said "that'll get them off the hook for a bit, and they switch back next series". Basically, she had a similar view to SR; don't make a male role female, but come up with more original female roles.
 

Mouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
9,815
Location
in your face
#87
Mouse, really? You WILL watch it because the Doctor has lady parts now?
Um, yes? Because I'm a woman and like to see some representation. Don't understand your issue.

There's a reason why my post wasn't in this thread in the first place (beside the fact I was answering something elsewhere) and that's because I can't keep arguing with people about why women are important too.
 

Brian G Turner

Fantasist & Futurist
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Messages
21,840
Location
Highlands
#88
Mmhmm *continues narrowing eyes suspiciously*
Okay, let's not try to be suspicious - I'm sure you can all discuss it with laughs over a drink some day. :)

I probably agree with this when I think about it - which I obviously am doing at the moment. It would have made it seem like less of a "thing" because it would be more apparent that there could be a female Dr and wouldn't have turned the Dr. into a positive male role model and then felt like a turn away from that.
Yeah - I mean, he's a freaking alien. IMO there's no reason why any of being white, male, and human, can't be challenged. Is there really any reason why he shouldn't regenerate as yet another species entirely? :)
 

thaddeus6th

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
6,138
Location
UK, Yorkshire
#89
Brian, if you wanted to be finickity about it, yes (and the reasoning below would also preclude a female Doctor).

If we shuffled your alleles (each allele being a variance of a gene) you'd still be human. You might have a different blood type and be taller, with skin a different shade and so on, but you'd still be male, and you'd still be human. Altering sex, in humans at least, means a different set of chromosomes (XX or XY, although other rare variants do happen). Changing species requires a different set of genes, whereas regeneration would appear more skin to different alleles.

[However, if we cast our minds back to Destiny of the Daleks, Romana chose wilfully to regenerate, and for one of them did appear to change species, becoming a dinky blue person].
 

The Bluestocking

Bloody Mary in Blue
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
1,263
#90
Um, yes? Because I'm a woman and like to see some representation. Don't understand your issue.

There's a reason why my post wasn't in this thread in the first place (beside the fact I was answering something elsewhere) and that's because I can't keep arguing with people about why women are important too.
*Goes and stands next to @Mouse in solidarity*
 

reiver33

Only Forward
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
1,515
Location
Dumfries
#91
Well, I wasn’t impressed. Ignoring any mention of gender I found the plot too simplistic. It went with the old ‘say/do it quickly enough and the audience won’t notice’ style of writing. There was a major incident (the train), 3 other unexplained deaths (brain freezing) and the construction site mayhem (and 5th death). Having UNIT weigh in to sweep things under the carpet would have been preferable to the passing mention of a cover story, and this Earth doesn’t seem connected to the multitude of previous alien visitations, including the Master.

If we’re back to a children’s program then fair enough, but the writing, plus ensemble cast, plus time slot make me think there isn’t a lot of faith in this current incarnation.
 

Brian G Turner

Fantasist & Futurist
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Messages
21,840
Location
Highlands
#92
If we shuffled your alleles (each allele being a variance of a gene) you'd still be human.
He's not human - he's Gallifreyan! :)

Besides, if you want to put hard science into a story about a time travelling alien who can defy death through instant regeneration, you're about 50+ years too late. :D
 

HoopyFrood

The secret ingredient is crime
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
5,372
Location
The Cloud
#94
It’s like people think that the people happy with this are now satisfied and don’t need any more women roles. Of course we want them! Bring them all on, women of all sorts, and all gender expressions and all races and all sexualities, please.

But people aren’t taking a chance. And I won’t immediately label the people who make these things sexist, because I know it’s about money and putting bums on seats as my old scriptwriting tutor said, and going with safe and what’s already liked is what happens. It’s a bigger cultural issue where we need to show, yes, we will support these roles if they are made and changing the overall mindset. And as they say about things like confidence, sometimes you have to fake it until it becomes natural. Force it now and hopefully we’ll get to a place where it won’t be an issue putting women (or other groups) into good roles.

Even with wildly popular things like the Marvel Universe, it’s taken ten years to finally get a female-led movie. There’s still a lot of hesitancy. So an elbow nudge here and there is needed to make the changes.

Although this is all moot when we’re taking about a character that regularly regenerates their whole body. That is what has happened, and there might be questions about why now and all that, but that’s it. The Doctor, once again, has regenerated.
 

SilentRoamer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
1,161
#95
Okay, let's not try to be suspicious - I'm sure you can all discuss it with laughs over a drink some day. :)

Yeah - I mean, he's a freaking alien. IMO there's no reason why any of being white, male, and human, can't be challenged. Is there really any reason why he shouldn't regenerate as yet another species entirely? :)
After two declarative statements of sincerity I don't wish to keep appealing to good judgement and will let opinions take their course. :)

I think they would have to be human Brian - otherwise they would be in a perfect human disguise every time they wanted to interact with humans! I think a minority Dr would have been interesting and would still have felt more like the Dr to me, I know that sentiment upsets people but its how I feel.

What, as in 10.4 million viewers for The Bodyguard?

Shocking...
Ok shocking was a strong word so I stand corrected. Overall TV figures for Terrestrial TV has been on the decline with the streaming and internet based options though. Probably my bias at the TV fee...

Um, yes? Because I'm a woman and like to see some representation. Don't understand your issue.

There's a reason why my post wasn't in this thread in the first place (beside the fact I was answering something elsewhere) and that's because I can't keep arguing with people about why women are important too.
I'm sure you're not implying that I think women aren't important, being a husband and father of two girls. I mean that would be a horrible thing to imply about someone whose world is his close family - all of whom are female.

Being a man I like to see continued hero male role models that don't shoot and kill things - surely you understand that?

Force it now and hopefully we’ll get to a place where it won’t be an issue putting women (or other groups) into good roles.
I don't like the word "force" and I see plenty of women and other groups in good roles in media. I don't think co-opting existing roles is a good idea.
 

Bagpuss

Shipwrecked & comatose - where's the mango juice?
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Messages
68
#96
@SilentRoamer - ok, so I'm confused about your position. Doubtless I'm an idiot, and I may have missed something you've said or not understood it completely. :)

I have no problems per se with the doctor becoming a woman, for an alien species that can regenerate at will I imagine most TimeLords would have spent lives as each gender. The problem I have is for the political and not story reasons it is being done.
Ok, so my question would be - how do you distinguish between the two situations?

You have no intrinsic problems with the doctor being a woman, so long as the reason for it is a "story" reason and not a "political" reason. So how do you distinguish between the two reasons? As a corollary question, what would a "story" reason for the doctor being female look like to you?
 

Jo Zebedee

Aliens vs Belfast. http://jozebedee.com/newsletter
Supporter
Joined
Oct 5, 2011
Messages
16,270
Location
blah - flags. So many flags.
#97
If you have daughters and, presumably, given the passion in your post for your family (x), want to make a more level playing field for them why wouldn’t you want women in more visible roles in a genre that has consistently closed out women characters (and creators) over the years?

I’m sorry. I know you are sincere, because I know you, but I can’t understand the disconnect I see there :(
 

Anushka Mokosh

Matryona Marzanna
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
2,906
#98
In this instance I don't think the problem is as pronounced because of the fluid (how woke am I) way the DR can regenerate. Having a female Iron Man or a female Thor though is just co-opting a character IMO.

I think original and powerful stories for female leads already exist and more are being written everyday. and I welcome more of it.
In this particular instance, I don't think there is a problem at all.
 

Jo Zebedee

Aliens vs Belfast. http://jozebedee.com/newsletter
Supporter
Joined
Oct 5, 2011
Messages
16,270
Location
blah - flags. So many flags.
#99
Mouse, true that there are many male protagonists, but not many that are (or were, anyway) pacifists.

I think a better way of achieving diversity in role models is through new characters. Ripley, Janeway, Samantha Carter etc etc. Diversity isn't replacing white male protagonists but adding new and varied leading roles. (Not to mention, the Doctor's daughter, now apparently thrown away as a concept, would've been an ideal way of achieving much the same).

I'm not too fussed on the Doctor, perhaps because I stopped watching a few episodes into Capaldi's time, but I think those who disagree with it have a legitimate perspective.
Male pacifist protagonists: Miles Vorkosigan (a soldier but never much of a killer), pretty much any Neil Gaiman hero, most Terry Pratchett characters, Ford Prefect ... I’m sure if i actually did a concerted raid of my bookcase and tv I’d find more (Red Dwarf... ?)

That argument holds no water.

Janeway takes a load of criticism.

It’s not about where women are represented but about acceptance when they are - the sane acceptance male characters have enjoyed for years.
 

Similar threads

Top