14th Female Doctor for the wrong reason not the right

[HareBrain]

Just a reminder, there's a separate thread for discussion of The Doctor's gender (though I can't imagine there's much that hasn't already been said about it).

 

[The Bluestocking]

SR, really? You won't watch it because the Doctor has lady parts now? You know how many positive male role models there are in film and TV compared to female ones?

But please, somebody think of the poor men!

Hear, hear!

Also, this just in: kids want to see more female superheroes (and that includes The Doctor).

 

[Vladd67]

Hear, hear!

Also, this just in: kids want to see more female superheroes (and that includes The Doctor).

Not in Europe apparently. Website unavailable.

 

[SilentRoamer]

SR, really? You won't watch it because the Doctor has lady parts now? You know how many positive male role models there are in film and TV compared to female ones?

Mouse, really? You WILL watch it because the Doctor has lady parts now?

Hear, hear!

Also, this just in: kids want to see more female superheroes (and that includes The Doctor).

I liked the purple robes in Sherlock - nice touch.

Who doesn't want to see more female superheroes? I just don't want traditionally male roles co-opted when it's only for political reasons and not reasons of story, there is plenty of strong and original material out there.

Let me just be clear - I have no problems per se with the doctor becoming a woman, for an alien species that can regenerate at will I imagine most TimeLords would have spent lives as each gender. The problem I have is for the political and not story reasons it is being done. I have a problem with the agenda not with the actual change. As I said it makes sense for a TimeLord to live as different people and genders (and races I would expect) but I think the change of sex is more political BBC than it is about the story. I have no problems with female leads, or female characters, I just don't think taking traditionally male roles and turning them female is the right way to go about getting strong female characters. But at least the ratings seem very good so potentially the result, despite the intention may be worthwhile.

Regarding positive male role models - I feel like most of them fight/force their way out of problems and there are not near enough that think, empathize and care their way out of situation, not every male hero should have a gun.

Happy to discuss further in the Dr gender thread with anyone who feels they would like to as @HareBrain points out I don't want to derail the thread.

 

[The Bluestocking]

Not in Europe apparently. Website unavailable.

GAH! That was from the LA Times (which explains why it's unavailable in Europe as they do not want to deal with the GDPR).

Here's another report. Can you access this one? It's Newsweek: Kids (really) want more women in sci-fi, superhero genres, study says

 

[The Bluestocking]

I liked the purple robes in Sherlock - nice touch.

It is NOT a nice touch - purple is one of the colours of the Suffragettes and also the colour of the anti-violence against women movement. Moffat was definitely hanging out his misogynist flag when he merged that significant colour with the Ku Klux Klan robes.

I am very VERY glad Moffat is gone and Chibnall is in charge now. And that we have an excellent start to Jodi's run as The Doctor.

 

[SilentRoamer]

It is NOT a nice touch - purple is one of the colours of the Suffragettes and also the colour of the anti-violence against women movement. Moffat was definitely hanging out his misogynist shingle when he merged that significant colour with the Ku Klux Klan robes.

I didn't miss the significance - although I don't think it was intentional. I have very little respect for the Sufragettes and a lot of respect for the Suffragists - I expect we wouldn't agree on this and I fear it is outside the bounds of discourse permitted here.

 

[The Bluestocking]

I didn't miss the significance - although I don't think it was intentional. I have very little respect for the Sufragettes and a lot of respect for the Suffragists - I expect we wouldn't agree on this and I fear it is outside the bounds of discourse permitted here.

Oh yes it was intentional. Moffat has brains and he can't have missed the significance of essentially making the villains in that SHERLOCK special "feminazis" in the flesh. All writers and creators have a choice - he chose that and even if he did not consciously do so, it's even more damning.

As for your gripe about the BBC changing The Doctor's gender to be politically correct? It's about high time we have a female Doctor anyway after decade upon decade of male Doctors. Then again, I see political correctness the same way Neil Gaiman does.

And no, based on your posts above, I don't think we'll ever agree on this topic since it's a fundamental difference in values and perspectives.

 

[SilentRoamer]

GAH! That was from the LA Times (which explains why it's unavailable in Europe as they do not want to deal with the GDPR).

Here's another report. Can you access this one? It's Newsweek: Kids (really) want more women in sci-fi, superhero genres, study says

Thats because the EU have draconian data laws that are going to get even worse with Article 13! Over regulation is a pain when you can't access websites!

I absolutely believe the article is true even not having read it - I would be surprised if most kids and even adults didn't want to see more strong women leads on our screen - I mean who wouldn't want to see more representation of the women in our society?

I think we might be in danger of rubbing each other the wrong way TBS - I am happy to discuss more with you over PM if you so choose - happy for you to copy another member in for transparency if you would otherwise feel uncomfortable. I can assure you I will (mostly) always be polite and try to find common ground.

Feel free to PM me if you like

 

[Dan Jones]

Guys, guys, come on now. Chill.

 

[SilentRoamer]

As for your gripe about the BBC changing The Doctor's gender to be politically correct? It's about high time we have a female Doctor anyway after decade upon decade of male Doctors. Then again, I see political correctness the same way Neil Gaiman does.

And no, based on your posts above, I don't think we'll ever agree on this topic since it's a fundamental difference in values and perspectives.

I didn't mention political correctness - I would find it hard to disagree with that post from Neil Gaiman and not sure how you took anything I said to mean I think being disrespectful to people for arbitrary factors is a good enough reason.

Yes we do have different values and perspectives, as we have come up against each others ideological viewpoints before - with disagreement. I don't assume I am right and I am willing to listen to others with dissimilar values and perspectives - in fact if we don't explore each others beliefs then what good does that do? Silencing dissenting views is never good, finding common ground is always good.

We can find some common ground in that we think all people, regardless of sex, colour or physicality should be treated as a sovereign individual with intrinsic human value. At least we can agree there!

 

[SilentRoamer]

Guys, guys, come on now. Chill.

Hopefully we can meet one day - for those members that have met me they know Chill is an apt descriptor.

I very rarely get mad, especially when engaging in disagreements, clinical detachment in difficult discourse is par the course for me!

 

[The Bluestocking]

I didn't mention political correctness

Mmhmm. But you implied it in so many words when you said: "The problem I have is for the political and not story reasons it is being done. I have a problem with the agenda not with the actual change. As I said it makes sense for a TimeLord to live as different people and genders (and races I would expect) but I think the change of sex is more political BBC than it is about the story."

Anyway, we are just going to disagree about pretty much everything so I'm going to stop here and just go off to resume feeling pleased about Jodie Whittaker being The Doctor.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Yeah, I think they should have switched the Doctor's gender waaay sooner.

In the 1990's, before Russell T Davis rebooted it, I wanted to reboot Doctor Who myself - Season 1 would have had me playing the Doctor, but in its final episode my companion and I would have merged, and Season 2 would have had the Doctor emerge as a black woman.

The Greatest Minds in BBC Production are still 20+ years behind my imagination...

In the meantime, to keep discussion on this thread on the episode that aired, I'll move the posts about the wider issue of the Doctor's gender to the existing thread about that.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Anyway, we are just going to disagree about pretty much everything so I'm going to stop here and just go off to resume feeling pleased about Jodie Whittaker being The Doctor.

My issues with the BBC go pretty deep - they stretch far beyond political correctness and well into cultural marxism - again if you want to discuss these views I am open to do it - even if you disagree with me. Some of my greatest friends in life have completely opposite viewpoints to me, in politics and other things, things often get heated, we just have to remind each other we're friends!

You should feel pleased - Jodie has had a lot of praise for her acting ability and her potrayal - the criticisms seem mostly aimed at the writing, which I feel has been a problem of the show for a while. Also just to be clear - I wish Jodie all the success and achievement she can get, seen her on a few interviews and she seems a fine person and worthy of an iconic role.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Yeah, I think they should have switched the Doctor's gender waaay sooner.

I probably agree with this when I think about it - which I obviously am doing at the moment. It would have made it seem like less of a "thing" because it would be more apparent that there could be a female Dr and wouldn't have turned the Dr. into a positive male role model and then felt like a turn away from that.

There are not many great minds in BBC production left it seems, their content is getting worse, evidenced by their shocking viewing numbers.

 

[The Bluestocking]

My issues with the BBC go pretty deep - they stretch far beyond political correctness and well into cultural marxism - again if you want to discuss these views I am open to do it - even if you disagree with me. Some of my greatest friends in life have completely opposite viewpoints to me, in politics and other things, things often get heated, we just have to remind each other we're friends!

You should feel pleased - Jodie has had a lot of praise for her acting ability and her potrayal - the criticisms seem mostly aimed at the writing, which I feel has been a problem of the show for a while. Also just to be clear - I wish Jodie all the success and achievement she can get, seen her on a few interviews and she seems a fine person and worthy of an iconic role.

You're just taking the Mickey out of me now, aren't you? *Narrows eyes suspiciously*

Sounds suspiciously like mansplaining to me and I don't quite care for that.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Let me just be clear - I have no problems per se with the doctor becoming a woman, for an alien species that can regenerate at will I imagine most TimeLords would have spent lives as each gender. The problem I have is for the political and not story reasons it is being done. I have a problem with the agenda not with the actual change. As I said it makes sense for a TimeLord to live as different people and genders (and races I would expect) but I think the change of sex is more political BBC than it is about the story. I have no problems with female leads, or female characters, I just don't think taking traditionally male roles and turning them female is the right way to go about getting strong female characters. But at least the ratings seem very good so potentially the result, despite the intention may be worthwhile.

While I see the merit in wanting original strong female characters and share the desire, I don't think this is as politically problematic as you think. It really depends on how it is framed within the universe and so far, the gender change has been rather ignored.

 

[SilentRoamer]

You're just taking the Mickey out of me now, aren't you? *Narrows eyes suspiciously*

Absolutely not. I'm a sincere person who always tries to have the convictions of what I say. Sometimes my views can be seen as contentious and I often rub people up the wrong way but I am mostly polite and open to differing views, but I believe in speaking my mind and I will always speak what I think regardless of the consequence because I think integrity of my own beliefs are a core part of who I am.

As I said just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't care for or value what you have to say. I try to be as pragmatic as possible, which means sometimes my views do change based on others arguments. There is nothing worse than an echo chamber - which is why I try to reach out for other views.

I honestly and genuinely wish Jodie all the best in the role despite my reservations of the reasons for it. I would not want someones career to fail or be affected negatively for a backlash that has nothing to do with them.

Like I said, feel free to PM me, we probably disagree with a lot as I expect we are totally on opposite ends of the political spectrum and probably diametrically opposed on a lot of things - that doesn't mean we can't have productive discourse and learn from each other.

Anyone who has personally met me - of which there are a number on this site, can attest to the fact I am being genuine!

 

[The Bluestocking]

Absolutely not. I'm a sincere person who always tries to have the convictions of what I say. Sometimes my views can be seen as contentious and I often rub people up the wrong way but I am mostly polite and open to differing views, but I believe in speaking my mind and I will always speak what I think regardless of the consequence because I think integrity of my own beliefs are a core part of who I am.

As I said just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't care for or value what you have to say. I try to be as pragmatic as possible, which means sometimes my views do change based on others arguments. There is nothing worse than an echo chamber - which is why I try to reach out for other views.

I honestly and genuinely wish Jodie all the best in the role despite my reservations of the reasons for it. I would not want someones career to fail or be affected negatively for a backlash that has nothing to do with them.

Like I said, feel free to PM me, we probably disagree with a lot as I expect we are totally on opposite ends of the political spectrum and probably diametrically opposed on a lot of things - that doesn't mean we can't have productive discourse and learn from each other.

Anyone who has personally met me - of which there are a number on this site, can attest to the fact I am being genuine!

Mmhmm *continues narrowing eyes suspiciously*