15,000 scientists can't be wrong

  1. Harpo

    Harpo Well-Known Me

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  2. Cathbad

    Cathbad Level 30 Geek Master

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    Sorry... our President won't stand for this hoax!

    :confused:
     
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  3. Caledfwlch

    Caledfwlch I am not a Geek, I am a Level 22 Warrior!

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    The West and everywhere Wealthy is going to have to dig deep into it's pockets to help out the third which - which will have to be an essential strut to any platform to save our environment.

    The Developing World , places such as India are hugely reliant on Oil and Coal for transport and power - and with their vast populations, the pollution they put out probably already exceeds most Western Nations.
    Equally, we cannot turn round to people we have spent decades, if not centuries saying "you should be like us, covet what we covet" then now say "yeah, you see, we have badly damaged the planet, so your not getting a turn, Im afraid we arent "allowing" you to have cars, and 21st century lifestyles whilst you are damaging the earth through being so dependent on fossil fuels.

    The easiest solution is building nuclear and hydroelectric power stations for them, free, to help them cut CO2 etc.

    Of course, many of the people in power are Climate Change Deniers.
    Never mind Trump, I am still genuinely astonished, and appalled, that Michael Gove, now a has been Tory MP who's gamble for Power failed, made a statement in which he urged the Public, during the Brexit referendum campaign to "don't listen to Experts - afterall, what do THEY know?" yeah, Mrs Miggins, a waitress in a Pie Shop, who doesn't have a GCSE or A Level to her name, is proud that she has never read a book of any kind, clearly knows more than someone with a Scientific Doctorate who has spent their long career investigating climate change, or indeed some windbag MP who couldn't even manage to successfully Backstab a colleague, despite belonging to a Party where backstabbing has been developed to a fine art clearly knows better too.

    It appears that in the English Speaking part of the Western World, we are sorely lacking in Mature Adults amongst our Politicians, when we need them more than ever.
     
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  4. BAYLOR

    BAYLOR There Are Always new Things to Learn.

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    It may already be too late to do much of anything .
     
  5. Harpo

    Harpo Well-Known Me

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    But, as they point out, we fixed the ozone layer in time, so we know we *can* do what's required if we just get it together
     
  6. BAYLOR

    BAYLOR There Are Always new Things to Learn.

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    We can't fix this. There are way too many people living on earth then the Earth can viably sustain, generating too much waste and who won't make the sacrifices necessary to to make any kind of difference.
     
  7. Harpo

    Harpo Well-Known Me

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    So there's no solution? Certainly if we all sit around saying "we can't fix this", or arranging to have big discussions every five years to set targets decades in the future.
    *parties like there's no tomorrow*
     
  8. BAYLOR

    BAYLOR There Are Always new Things to Learn.

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    Siting around and talking about it is all most of us are ever going to do about it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  9. Cathbad

    Cathbad Level 30 Geek Master

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    Ridiculous.

    No, we cannot sustain things as they are. A radical change in our lifestyles is required. This earth can sustain this many - and probably three times as many! But not by subjecting it to the abuse we are currently putting it through.

    We are but Renters on this planet. If we don't treat the property we have leased with the proper respect, we won't be allowed to continue renting it (survive).
     
  10. Mouse

    Mouse ejtett.weebly.com

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    There are too many people on the planet, we should be encouraging people who choose to be childfree, not punishing or shaming them. To nick a phrase from the animal rescue community: Adopt, Don't Shop. Same thing should apply! Countless kiddies needing homes already...

    Saying people won't make the sacrifices necessary... I'm not sure that's completely true. Yeah, there are horrible, lazy people, there are the deniers etc. etc. But I think there's a hell of a lot of young people who are more interested in being eco-friendly nowadays. My younger bro and his mates gave up a whole weekend a few weeks ago to go and pick litter from the beach. This wasn't a community scheme, they did it off their own backs. My bro even took everything home and recycled it.

    If everybody did a small thing, even, instead of thinking 'well nobody's bothering, so I'll not either' then it'd help. I'm pretty pleased with the fact I have zero food waste in my house, for example, and I don't eat meat. I also don't drive very often, though I'm lucky to work mostly from home - I know most people can't do that.
     
  11. Caledfwlch

    Caledfwlch I am not a Geek, I am a Level 22 Warrior!

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    The fastest growing populations are in the third world, for exactly the same reasons that large and even huge families were normal in Europe, and I think in the United States in the past. Really poor people in developing nations have multiple children, even though they can barely feed themselves, let alone a child, because those children when older can work, and bring in cash, or work on the family farm/business, not to mention horrendous child mortality rates.
    The Vatican has a huge amount of responsibility both for the overpopulation, the fact that poor African families are having multiple children they cannot afford to feed, to get medical care for, and the spread of HIV. Because of their insistence that sexual congress using physical contraception that would prevent the spread of HIV and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases is a Sin. It's nice to see the Cardinals swanning around in the sort of Luxury most people can only dream about, whilst the victims of their irresponsible prohibition on Contraception are left starving, dying, forced to work at 5 years old and so on. It has huge influence across Africa, and it it changed it's ludicrous position, then the birth rates would slow, and more importantly, the rapid spread of HIV will decline.

    Saving the World is not just an environmental issue, dealing with it requires political, spiritual, religious and many other approaches.
     
  12. SilentRoamer

    SilentRoamer Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree wholeheartedly with Baylor. There are a number of reasons this will never happen.

    The population levels as they currently stand are completely unsustainable moving forwards irrespective of what energy types we use. Sure clean energy will make a huge difference but you still need to feed this incredible amount of people which means increased agriculture and ever increasing deforestation. This is assuming that energy demands can be met purely by clean and renewable energy sources - which I really do doubt.

    Then there is of course the problem with the trillions of tonnes of non degradable plastics which we have dumped into the ocean and are now making their way into the food chain as micro plastics - what does the death of the oceans mean for the planet?

    Then there are the increasingly likely situation of Nuclear War and proliferation of devices.

    The environment is so tied into society, economics, agriculture and human behavior that any major changes would require a paradigm shift, the problem for me is that we already accept the Paradigm shift - I don't know a single person in real life that would deny climate change is real, however getting people to act outside of their own bubbles is impossible.

    I see it as a question like this: could human beings collectively and globally agree a framework for energy supply and consumption that both meets the needs of the human population of Earth whilst also safeguarding the Earthen environmental conditions - entailing cross economic partnerships, increased collaboration between neighboring states (just a reminder some of these are currently killing each other) and the complete and unfettered sacrifices in lifestyle for the Western World at the same time as telling the rest of the World they cannot follow the same path to economic prosperity that the Western world has? It's kind of like asking whether the world could exist without murder - it is of course entirely possible, but it's never going to happen.

    Call me a naysayer and a prophet of doom but I genuinely do believe that humans are going to have to learn to survive on a hell of their own making, certainly in the next few hundred years.
     
  13. LordOfWizards

    LordOfWizards Well-Known Member

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    Ah, Harpo. I've been doing everything I can about this most of my life. I always recycle, I have solar power on my roof, I drive a Prius and have a Tesla 3 on order. I'm afraid you are definitely "preaching to the choir" here. You are addressing a group of intelligent educated people on this site. We may all agree whole-heart, and yet there are billions of folks struggling everyday just to stay alive. If you know of a way to educate people who are so poor they can't pay attention, please tell us how!
     
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  14. Caledfwlch

    Caledfwlch I am not a Geek, I am a Level 22 Warrior!

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    Income does not determine Intelligence. I know 1 or 2 people who are very poor, on disability benefits, have never worked, yet have vastly more intelligent than for example most of the people sat in the House of Commons.

    The poor are not unwilling to be educated on these issues, and they can pay attention, they simply cannot afford to do anything about it.
    A Middle Class Professional on a reasonable income can afford to get Organic Chickens, free range eggs etc, to get food that is much better for the Planet and it's sustainability. A poor person simply has no choice, They cannot afford the often shocking price of food that is organic, free range, gluten free, vegan, vegetarian and so on.

    I had organic free range chicken once - I loved it, my ex fiance didn't - she just found the chicken taste too overpowering. At the time that Tesco organic chicken cost around £10, whilst a much larger standard Tesco Chicken (battery farmed I assume) cost £4. We simply couldn't justify spending that much on a Chicken. Luckily she could cook, and she quickly taught me to cook, so for a short period of 3 or 4 months, when a Recruitment Agency let us down, and we were forced to subsist on Jobseekers Allowance, a couple claiming get less than if they stopped living together and made separate claims which is crazy, but due to being able to cook, and having the wits to go to the Library and find budget recipe books, so we were able to maintain eating freshly prepared food, rather than relying on Iceland and other stuff filled to the lid with sugar, E numbers and other chemicals - I am diabetic, and those sorts of foods, sauces etc are lethal, they are packed with so much crap.

    But many people don't have that option. If Organic etc came down in Price to be the same as the non organic/veggy stuff, if it could compete better, ,then maybe more poor people would start adopting it, and tuning down the factory harmed animals they are living on now.
     
  15. LordOfWizards

    LordOfWizards Well-Known Member

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    Let me start by saying it is in no way my intention to start any kind of drawn out argument here, but stating that you know of an exception to the norm does not qualify in my mind as an excuse to ignore the general trend. I have worked with organizations like United Way and so forth and I find it to be the general rule that the poorer you are the less you have been educated, and I would wager that at least 80% of the world's population has not been to college. If your day consists of trying to find something to eat for your family, you will not be concerned with topics like climate change etc. That's all I'm saying.

    6.7% Of World Has College Degree
     
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  16. Caledfwlch

    Caledfwlch I am not a Geek, I am a Level 22 Warrior!

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    All I am trying to say is that just because people are poor does not mean they do not understand the problem of climate change, and also that there is no point in educating them, most would understand what you would like to teach them, they simply lack the ability or wherewithal to actively contribute towards cutting practices that are damaging the environment, and employing practices that help substainability, so recycling more, buying healthy food that doesnt have as far to travel, is not covered in harmful pesticides, or antibiotics etc etc

    Poor people in the Developing World don't really need that education anyway, they are generally making the least damage to the climate, in terms of what they consume, they cant afford expensive food imports, Ipads, BMW Cars, and even if it were available which seems unlikely, they couldn't afford to eat vegetarian and vegan meals, beyond a natural element in their diet, due to being poor, so existing on cheap local veg etc.

    Even in the UK with it's famed Welfare State a person on Benefits cannot do what middle class people and families are to help substainability, healthy, organic or "free of various things" food is quite simply beyond affordability if your only receiving £73 a week. It is also beyond the affordability of people in full time work on minimum wage.
     
  17. LordOfWizards

    LordOfWizards Well-Known Member

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    Sure, I agree that they can understand and maybe even chip in here and there. I also get your point that they are not the ones most likely contributing to the issue. As far as there being a point in educating them, I think it is a fabulous idea, but the real barrier is in fact money. Most of those who have enough money to help educate others who might benefit don't seem inclined to take that kind of initiative. The point I was attempting to make is that I have been a crusader for all sorts of noble causes, and it gets very tiring when so few seem to care. I live in the US, and right now I almost wish I could move to Britain. (maybe that is just the grass is greener syndrome) I can't say a whole lot more about that without getting into political issues, and there has been some clashes on this site that have caused the moderators to shut down that kind of discussion. I wasn't a part of that, but I was informed of it, and I enjoy the company here so I prefer to avoid narratives that could get me into any of that nonsense. In my middle class neighborhood, I am the only person I know of within a square mile or more that has a solar powered house. Other than setting that example, I don't know how to motivate people. Frightening them will most likely be unproductive. If anyone knows of a good way to get those in power to do anything, I'd love to hear it. I don't necessarily mean elected officials. I believe that big money holds the puppet strings anyway, but that is only my opinion, and all who wish are free to disagree.

    Edit: It also occurred to me that ironically, the poorest in the world are the most likely to suffer from "vast human misery" as the article puts it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  18. Parson

    Parson This world is not my home

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    This will always be the case. ---- I am particularly aggravated by wealthy people living on the coast who do not want wind farms obstructing their view. Is it not possible to see those majestic mills as keeping a train load of coal in the ground and out of the air?
     
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  19. DelActivisto

    DelActivisto WARG!

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    Heya, that's my university!:cool::cool::cool:

    Being poor does prevent people from being as "green" as they can. Poor people often make choices that benefit them in the short term, not long term. So they are buying vehicles that spit out lots of GHGs, they eat out too much, use disposable plates because they're constantly out of times, and definitely can't afford Leafs or Teslas or solar panels.

    Radical redistribution of income would alleviate much suffering in the world. A sustainable world, equitable for all, and moderately socialist, is the world we should be striving for to make sure everyone is happy, healthy, and safe, and ensure the earth's species do not die off in droves.

    We can make it happen. We must make it happen.

    Otherwise we're all going to die.:rolleyes:
     
  20. LordOfWizards

    LordOfWizards Well-Known Member

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    Yes Parson. I'm with you there. Another irony is that the coast these folks so dearly want to preserve will likely disappear in the next 50 - 70 years due to global ice melt.
     
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