Why are people so obsessed with WW2?

[Edward M. Grant]

The murder rates under the Soviets is something like 10 million --50 million into the 80s--which is astounding--and at the very least because the western compassionate media had no interest in the story.

More to the point, the Western media covered up the story, because so many were Communist sympathizers. It's also worth noting that many in the West supported Hitler until he turned against Stalin. In their view, National Socialism was great until it decided to destroy Communism.

In some cases, that even went to the extent of trying to prevent or slow down the shipment of supplies that would help their own country in the war against Germany.

Only later did I read that Jesse Owens said Hitler treated him fine, it was FDR and Truman who were not respectful.

I've no idea whether that one's true, but I read an interesting book recently which talked about the Nazis basing many of their racial laws on the laws in American south at that time. Except the Nazi laws weren't as strict, because they thought the American laws went too far (the 'one drop rule' and all that).

 

[Toby Frost]

More to the point, the Western media covered up the story, because so many were Communist sympathizers.

That was pretty common knowledge among people who knew history when I grew up (and weren't anti-West).

 

[KGeo777]

I knew about communist sympathizers but not why communism was criticized. The standard media position here in North America was that Communists were pro-worker, anti-religious, and that was why they were disliked-end of story.

 

[DelActivisto]

I knew about communist sympathizers but not why communism was criticized. The standard media position here in North America was that Communists were pro-worker, anti-religious, and that was why they were disliked-end of story.

Generally generally fail to understand the nuances. People cast Karl Marx as basically inspired by Satan, which is unfair. Karl Marx's vision would probably result in a fairly stable type of society, although probably by nature not a very rich one. The problem was the transition state. We never had any communist states, we had communist transition states, and they became corrupted immediately. Marx clearly had too high of an opinion of government officials. I think therefore it's important to point out that Marxism didn't cost people their lives, unethical implementation cost people their lives.

 

[Edward M. Grant]

I knew about communist sympathizers but not why communism was criticized. The standard media position here in North America was that Communists were pro-worker, anti-religious, and that was why they were disliked-end of story.

The amazing part was the rapid transition from Nazi Ally to Uncle Joe Stalin to The Evil Communist Horde. That must have been remarkable to see. Particularly for those who'd risked their lives to deliver supplies to the USSR in WWII.

I wonder whether it was an inspiration for Orwell's 1984, where allies would become enemies overnight and everyone would 'forget' they ever were allies?

 

[KGeo777]

I think therefore it's important to point out that Marxism didn't cost people their lives, unethical implementation cost people their lives.

There's a quote attributed to him that he thought the family unit was at war with itself--which sounds rather nuts. Hopefully it's not accurate, or maybe it was Groucho who said it.



Communism looks to me like a system where in an ideology of alleged equality (which has to come through disruption and crisis), betas take control of a society and sideline alphas-and that from a biological POV seems like an unnatural thing to do, and no surprise it would collapse since under the system merit is not the basis for why people get appointed to positions of power--loyalty to the ideology is.

Also, under communism it would seem the worst crime is unlawful thought, while in the so-called fascist world view, physical behavior that is perceived as a threat to the health of the society is.
I would be sympathetic to communism if was concerned about ecology, but from what I read it is no better than capitalism in that area and perhaps even worse in some ways. I also think the main patrons of communism are not sincere in their adherence to equality or justice. The Bolsheviks demonstrated this, as did their wealthy media sympathizers in the West by concealing the negatives.

 

[Venusian Broon]

The amazing part was the rapid transition from Nazi Ally to Uncle Joe Stalin to The Evil Communist Horde. That must have been remarkable to see. Particularly for those who'd risked their lives to deliver supplies to the USSR in WWII.

I wonder whether it was an inspiration for Orwell's 1984, where allies would become enemies overnight and everyone would 'forget' they ever were allies?

Not really in the grand scheme of things. My enemy's enemy is my friend. Nazi Germany was much more of a threat to Britain than the USSR, so it was expedite to arrange an alliance. (Also taking a leaf out of Adolf's book anyway, with his use of lightning quick and inventive non-aggression packs).

And such quick changes are all throughout European history if you look for them. Usually in Britain's case it was to stop anyone being too powerful on continental Europe - look at our behaviour in the war of the Spanish succession, as soon as it looked like the Habsburgs, our allies at the time, would get the Spanish and Austrian domains, Britain backtracked and went with the enemy, France, to get a deal.

And such a policy actually worked if you think about it. However it just let the US and the USSR to come in and eclipse the old European empires.

It should be noted there had been friction between the UK and Russia since the end of the Napoleonic wars and resulted in a number of disastrous and wasteful wars - look at the 1st Afghanistan War in 1839, the Crimea war, or even Britain's alliance with Japan that effectively stopped Russian allies from helping Russia in 1904. In fact one of Churchill's 'Gallipoli'-type operations he dreamt up was an invasion of Northern Sweden so that the UK could supply and help the Finnish against the Russians in 1940. Thankfully that did not occur. Reverting the USSR back to rival and potential enemy was just going back to the norm.

 

[The Judge]

Just a reminder that we don't talk politics or social issues here on Chrons.

This thread is about a perceived obsession about WWII, so let's get back to that. We'll allow a certain latitude to include other general WWII matters or historical issues which shed a light on WWII, but please don't stray beyond those limits.

 

[svalbard]

I cannot add much to what has already been said. WWII was the defining moment of the last century. It was a moment in history when for once we can say the good guys won( even if some of those good guys were questionable). Also we have living testimony to this day and as an Irishman even I have have a connection.

My Great-Grandfather fought for the British in WWI and then for the Treaty side in the Irish Civil War. Later in WWII he was a merchant seaman in the North Sea. And very proud of this he was too.

My Grandfather served in the Irish Free State army during the Emergency(this is what the Irish Government of the time called WWII). He was part of a unit that found the body of a Luftwaffee pilot that crashed in the Beara Peninsula and gave the pilot a full military funeral. Thousands of Irishmen joined the British Army to fight the NAZI threat but for decades this was not recognised or if it was then it was spoken of in hushed whispers by family members. Such was our diificult relationship with Britain. Mental when you think of it now.

On a personal familial level. My Great-Grand Daddy drew two pensions in his later years from the both the British Army and the Irish Defence Forces but at a cost. My Mum remembers him constantly waking screaming from his sleep and his wounds in later life caused him great pain. Never knew the man but have always wished I met him. I did know my Grand-Dad and he told me the story of the buried pilot in the Beara Peninsula(which I researched afterwards). He despised Hitler, Stalin and Churchill.

I could understand the first two, but was puzzeled about Churchill. Gallipoli was his response and he left it there

 

[Cottencandytrill]

What does the abbreviation GI mean?

 

[KGeo777]

What does the abbreviation GI mean?

Soldier, at least in the US.

On a related note--in a 1960s Harry Palmer film (Funeral in Berlin), Michael Caine mentions he has a portable Batman suit. This makes one think he means Batman as in Robin, but the assumption is he meant the military meaning of Batman-soldier assigned as personal valet.

And yet, in the next Harry Palmer film, Billion Dollar Brain, a picture of Batman and Robin is seen on his office wall.

Sorry for the digression.

 

[sknox]

GI = Government Issue, a reference to what you got the first day at boot camp. Came to refer to the soldiers themselves, as noted above.

 

[Foxbat]

Just to add another fascinating fact to the above G.I. explanation, I believe Jeep (another WW2 staple) is actually a phonetic extrapolation of G.P. (as in General Purpose vehicle). Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[DelActivisto]

Just to add another fascinating fact to the above G.I. explanation, I believe Jeep (another WW2 staple) is actually a phonetic extrapolation of G.P. (as in General Purpose vehicle). Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Geeps?

 

[Brian G Turner]

I thought GI just meant General Infantryman.

 

[Pyan]

Just to add another fascinating fact to the above G.I. explanation, I believe Jeep (another WW2 staple) is actually a phonetic extrapolation of G.P. (as in General Purpose vehicle). Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Lots of discussion about that one, though: perhaps we should be calling it a Peep...

How the Jeep got its name

 

[Caledfwlch]

That too. But Britain had lost the will to maintain an Empire by the 30s, and America was beginning to overtake it as the source of new technologies and industries. It was really just a question of how long it would be before the people living in the Empire demanded a divorce, so they could hook up with America instead. The British government wasn't going to conscript an army for years to fight to hold on to India or Rhodesia against popular opposition.

Just look at the political change during WWII, where the voters threw Churchill out before the war was even over, and voted in a Labour government whose entire policy was more welfare and more nationalization. That's not the behaviour of an energetic, expansionist nation, but an inward-looking and fading one.

I suspect that was the behaviour of the Working Class ensuring that this time, unlike after WW1, the promises made for change would be upheld. Plus, the people knew Churchill far too well - nobody with even a tiny bit of sanity left wanted a vile person like him ruling a peace time UK. As people often say, in WW2, we were fighting bastards, led by bastards, so we needed our own *******, and that was Winston. and you don't elect a ******* to run your nation in peace time.

I think the biggest difference to the world now, if the UK was not saddled with debts intended to sink it as a Power by the US, would be a world at least a little more stable and peaceful. A UK not knowing its in finance difficulties till well into the 21st century, may have dismantled the Empire in a more orderly fashion and left behind it more stable countries and institutions.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Just a note; the UK did not finally pay off its War time loan to the US until 2006!

This is interesting reading. Anglo-American loan - Wikipedia

 

[Caledfwlch]

Just to add another fascinating fact to the above G.I. explanation, I believe Jeep (another WW2 staple) is actually a phonetic extrapolation of G.P. (as in General Purpose vehicle). Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe that is correct - I was watching an episode of Combat Dealers on Quest, where they were refurbishing a WW2 US Army Jeep, and explained the name.

Nobody actually seems to know why British Infantrymen used to be known as "Tommy" and "Tommy's" aka "Tommy Atkins" it was especially prevalent during WW1, and I have heard theories suggesting they had example's of correctly filled identification documents for soldiers as a guide to filling their own in, using "Tommy Atkins" but the oldest known use of Tommy / Tommy Atkins is from 1743!!!

I have always found the usually American mildly derogatory term for British people, "Limey's" to be highly amusing - you are trying to insult people by pointing out that Royal Navy Sailors used to eat Lime which kept them free from Scurvy? So, your insult is, your Sailors are full of Scurvy, whilst ours are not, thus its an insult?

It is amusing that many of the national insults/nicknames used against the soldiers of European armies tend to be food based.
Germans - The Boche - basically meaning "German Cabbage Head" "Kraut" from Sauerkraut, which I think is also Cabbage.
British Troops, esp in the Napoleonic era would often use "Frog" for obvious reasons. "Crapaud" (French for Toad) was another common insult, I assume they found the French for actual Frogs to be too difficult to pronounce - for some random reason, the "Pas-de-Charge" drum beat was called by Redcoats, "Old Trousers" nobody seems quite sure why. "Frog" has been around as an insult since the 1300's, but until around the Napoleonic era, it actually referred to Jesuits and the Dutch.

A common French Army insult for British Troops in the 18th/19th centuries was "Les Rosbifs" literally the "Roast Beefs" because that's what British soldiers were fond of, being easy to cook on a campfire.

 

[Caledfwlch]

Before WWII, being racist in Britain was kind of pointless, because most people outside London would never see someone who wasn't white. Even as a kid, I only remember seeing one non-white person in my town, and he was another kid at my school who was probably from Pakistan: I don't know for sure, because I never bothered asking.... to us, he was just another kid.

Whether it was true or just his memory of his experience, my father used to say that no-one ever treated black GIs any differently to anyone else during the war. If my aunt was still alive, I'd ask her if she dated any, because she had a bit of a reputation with the soldiers .

Ethnic Minorities were far more widespread in the UK, outside of London, before ww2 than you imagine!

Before the British Empire banned Slavery, Black African's were common sights throughout the UK, working in the homes and businesses of the nobility, wealthy merchants and so on - they didn't just vanish, once freed, they and their descendants were still living here.
Part of the problem is that many Black people in these sorts of time periods, if they settled outside of the Trade Ports, such as London, Cardiff, they generally took White wives or husbands - there were well known or accomplished Black Britons/migrants from the 18th/19th centuries who's descendants are still around, but in appearance look white, thanks to centuries, or decades of mixed marriage.

The 19th century also saw the beginning of large scale migration by Black and Chinese people into the UK.
And Wales, had major Italian migration into it, for decades before WW2, so there have been plenty of people around of darker skin, and different ethnicities for a pretty long time.