Game of Thrones: 7.07 - The Dragon and the Wolf

[Gnrevolution]

By the way. Is the Dornish army just sitting at home? They should have a new ruler and be wanting revenge. Kind of odd to show senior dornish folks being killed in various episodes but after the failed Navy pickup they are forgotten. Maybe they will pop up over the horizon next series.

Ah Dorne, the forgotten country. I wonder why they even bothered introducing Dorne in the first place? Pedro Pascal was awesome but everything since then has been tragically bad. Maybe they are just trying to pretend Dorne never existed....

 

[Khuratokh]

I don't know if this has been remarked upon yet, but when Sandor confronts Gregor Clegane, they seem to be the same size. Has 'the mountain that rides' been subject to erosian?

 

[Gnrevolution]

I don't know if this has been remarked upon yet, but when Sandor confronts Gregor Clegane, they seem to be the same size. Has 'the mountain that rides' been subject to erosian?

Rory (Sandor) is much bigger than I thought (6'6") whilst Gregor is 6'9" so I believe, so the difference is minimal. Book Gregor is opposed to be much bigger but they scaled him down for the show, it's just against most people he still looks huge but against his brother, not so much...

 

[Koopa]

I know Cersei is getting a lot of slack, but from her POV what does she has to lose for playing the odds. I think this is why the writers wrote in that Cersei was pregnant. Cause she needed something to lose besides her own power/life. Without her pregnancy she really has no reason at all to even consider joining up with Dany and Jon. She don't care for the smallfolk and the smallfolk don't care for her. Without her pregnancy... . Let's say she joined up. When the war against the dead is over (and hopefully won) she probably gets stripped from her power, at which point she has (in her mind) nothing left to live for. Plus she will be possible killed by Dany/Jon. Her forces and resouces will have dwindled away too, so she wouldn't be able to protect herself.

Now, if she chooses not to join Dany and Jon, then all of a sudden a world of possibilities open up should the living win. She will have bought time to strenghten her own position and Dany and Jon's resources will have been vastly diminshed. Thus giving her a chance to win the war among the living and hold on to her power. One could even arue that by not siding with Dany and Jon her own survival rate went upwards. Depending on how big of a threat you all think Dany and jon will be after the war against the dead. Honestly if she has her timing right, and strikes the Dany/Jon alliance moments after the war against the dead (whilst they are still reeling, getting their bearings) i'd put my money on Cersei. Surviving Dragon or not. Especially since Moat Cailin became ineffective with the ironborns control of the seas.

 

[Brian G Turner]

The idea of every army going North seems nice, but the logistics - not least lack of food in the North seems to have been completely overlooked. However, now that Cersei has paid off the Iron Bank, perhaps all that gold will now be loaned to Dany to pay for a load to be imported.

The romance between Jon and Dany seemed rushed, but as it's been a long time coming so I guess better to just get it over with, than drag it out unnecessarily.

The whole "capture an Other" plotline makes for good TV, but results in a pretty convoluted plot development. In the end it was all pointless because Cersei was always going to betray everyone anyway - but the Others are now only a real danger *because* of this storyline.

Additionally, considering how many characters have died and come back to life, I'm not sure the context of capturing and presenting an Other to Cersei could realistically have persuaded her there was a devastating horde about to destroy all life in the world - especially when this cycle has apparently happened many times before. And when she has an undead Ser Gregor beside her at all times.

Speaking of Cersei: "No one walks away from me," she said, before letting Jaime walk away from her.

Also - I'm not sure why she thinks 20,000 mercenaries are somehow a good investment against an army of unsullied, Dothraki horde, and dragons???

And all of the things Bran could say to help everyone, is Jon parentage really the most important information to let everyone know right now? Still, the initial thought is that Jon is going to be the third betryal, "for love", because his claim completely undermines everything Dany has fought for.

However, the show seems to be hinting it's actually going to be Tyrion - Cersei pointed out that Dany is the sort of person he falls for, and Tyrion may suddenly decide to put his family interests (a new baby!) first. Only for him to be betrayed by Cersei (surprise!) and regret it. Even though he's espoused the curiously anachronistic ideal of a better world for everyone over family ties.

 

[Judderman]

I think Tyrion betraying Dany would be a great development. I suspect more likely if that apparently happened it would in fact be a bluff and he would just turn on Cersei when it hurts her most.

 

[Gnrevolution]

I know Cersei is getting a lot of slack, but from her POV what does she has to lose for playing the odds. I think this is why the writers wrote in that Cersei was pregnant. Cause she needed something to lose besides her own power/life. Without her pregnancy she really has no reason at all to even consider joining up with Dany and Jon. She don't care for the smallfolk and the smallfolk don't care for her. Without her pregnancy... . Let's say she joined up. When the war against the dead is over (and hopefully won) she probably gets stripped from her power, at which point she has (in her mind) nothing left to live for. Plus she will be possible killed by Dany/Jon. Her forces and resouces will have dwindled away too, so she wouldn't be able to protect herself.

Now, if she chooses not to join Dany and Jon, then all of a sudden a world of possibilities open up should the living win. She will have bought time to strenghten her own position and Dany and Jon's resources will have been vastly diminshed. Thus giving her a chance to win the war among the living and hold on to her power. One could even arue that by not siding with Dany and Jon her own survival rate went upwards. Depending on how big of a threat you all think Dany and jon will be after the war against the dead. Honestly if she has her timing right, and strikes the Dany/Jon alliance moments after the war against the dead (whilst they are still reeling, getting their bearings) i'd put my money on Cersei. Surviving Dragon or not. Especially since Moat Cailin became ineffective with the ironborns control of the seas.

Oh no, absolutely Cersei had to go the way she did. I was kinda disappointed when she agreed to the alliance, it seemed to go against her character, so I was very happy when it turned out to be a load of bull. Don't get me wrong, she's making a bad choice, but that's always been Cersei, short sighted but with the fixation that she is looking further than anyone else. As Jaime pointed out, no matter the outcome she loses in either scenario. Well, dependent on the Golden Company and the influence they may have...

Also - I'm not sure why she thinks 20,000 mercenaries are somehow a good investment against an army of unsullied, Dothraki horde, and dragons???.

So they haven't mentioned them much in the show but in the books they are a formidable mercenary force who have never taken on something they haven't or couldn't deliver. The Iron Bank (as briefly mentioned) have used them several times, the GC is supposed to be an elite mercenary company. Still don't see how they beat dragons though, even with their elephants, that's just offering up lunch.

 

[Koopa]

Not sure on wether they have never taken on something they couldn't deliver, as they failed to put a blackfyre on the throne. In the books they only broke their contract once though. And that was present time.

 

[pete997]

Oh no, absolutely Cersei had to go the way she did. I was kinda disappointed when she agreed to the alliance, it seemed to go against her character, so I was very happy when it turned out to be a load of bull. Don't get me wrong, she's making a bad choice, but that's always been Cersei, short sighted but with the fixation that she is looking further than anyone else. As Jaime pointed out, no matter the outcome she loses in either scenario. Well, dependent on the Golden Company and the influence they may have...



So they haven't mentioned them much in the show but in the books they are a formidable mercenary force who have never taken on something they haven't or couldn't deliver. The Iron Bank (as briefly mentioned) have used them several times, the GC is supposed to be an elite mercenary company. Still don't see how they beat dragons though, even with their elephants, that's just offering up lunch.

it hasn't really been stated how many Dothraki Daenerys has. Drogo's Khalasaar was said to have 50,000. I'm not sure if that is riders or everyone. and that was just one Khalasaar. Daenerys united the Dothraki. she might well have 100,000 Dothraki at her beck and call. I'm not sure the Golden Company would feel comfortable going up against even 20,000 Dothraki plus Unsullied plus Knights of the Vail.

 

[Koopa]

Don't know much about military, but i'd try and go up against dothraki with spear- and bowmen from up a mountaintop surrounded by boggy fields/swamps.

 

[Danny Creasy]

Thank you for clarifying. I thought the Dornish army was already on those ships and perished.

 

[Gnrevolution]

it hasn't really been stated how many Dothraki Daenerys has. Drogo's Khalasaar was said to have 50,000. I'm not sure if that is riders or everyone. and that was just one Khalasaar. Daenerys united the Dothraki. she might well have 100,000 Dothraki at her beck and call. I'm not sure the Golden Company would feel comfortable going up against even 20,000 Dothraki plus Unsullied plus Knights of the Vail.

Well it is an awful lot, but in theory Cersei still has a standing army of her own plus Euron's forces to even things out. And the Golden Company, being from Essos, may already have had some engagement with the Dothraki and may have a way of dealing with them (as mentioned by Koopa), an alternative is trapping the battlefield with covered ditches or the use of caltrops (the medieval equivalent of mines), or the use of fire, how well will horses deal with wildfire? And we just know that Cersei isn't going to play fair...

 

[Dan Jones]

It's a stretch but one theory doing the rounds is that the NK was waiting north of the wall for one of the dragons to show up, that the rise of the NK and the birth of the dragons are somehow linked. Like I said, it's a bit of a stretch, but it was rather convenient that they've been nowhere near the wall until now and then wham, within an episode of the dragon being turned they all show up. It is almost like they were waiting....

Not necessarily a stretch. The Night King and his hordes of ice zombies waited an awfully long time while Jon and his merry men slowly froze on that little rock in the middle of the ice lake. Almost like the Night King was waiting for Dany to show up? There's some an theory stuff about The Night King being a Green seer, like Bran, which would enable him to see things happening elsewhere (he definitely seems to have some sort of connection to Bran).

In which case, TNK could have sprung the whole things as a trap. True, that doesn't explain the rather daft plan to go up north and capture a wight to begin with, but it does give credence to the whole plot line of giving TNK a dragon. After all, he needed a dragon to burn down the wall, so it makes sense that he would lay a trap to get hold of one, rather than rely on a pure fluke. After all, what are the chances of a dragon just rocking up north of the wall, if you didn't already know it was coming?

 

[Dan Jones]

And the Golden Company, being from Essos, may already have had some engagement with the Dothraki and may have a way of dealing with them (as mentioned by Koopa)

We know that the Golden Company have armed elephants in their armies, as was mentioned by Illyrio and others, so I expect that may have something to do with it. Oliphaunts, Master Frodo!

 

[Gnrevolution]

Not necessarily a stretch. The Night King and his hordes of ice zombies waited an awfully long time while Jon and his merry men slowly froze on that little rock in the middle of the ice lake. Almost like the Night King was waiting for Dany to show up? There's some an theory stuff about The Night King being a Green seer, like Bran, which would enable him to see things happening elsewhere (he definitely seems to have some sort of connection to Bran).

Hmm, still feels stretchy to me. If that was the case, why did they attack when it became clear the ice had frozen over? To keep up the rouse? If everyone had died before Dany got there would she have just turned around and left? Or not gone at all?

In which case, TNK could have sprung the whole things as a trap. True, that doesn't explain the rather daft plan to go up north and capture a wight to begin with, but it does give credence to the whole plot line of giving TNK a dragon. After all, he needed a dragon to burn down the wall, so it makes sense that he would lay a trap to get hold of one, rather than rely on a pure fluke. After all, what are the chances of a dragon just rocking up north of the wall, if you didn't already know it was coming?

Hmm, that does make me wonder, who came up with that 'glorious' plan? Was it Jon? Was he manipulated into that decision by someone? Was that someone maybe planning all of this? I can't remember who came up with the idea now, but maybe it's an idea that was planted?

TBH still think it was coincidence and they could have got through Eastwatch anyway, given the NK can raise the army from fallen defenders, but it's interesting to speculate...

 

[Koopa]

The plan was first brought forward by wise Tyrion... or more like he was the mouthpiece used by the writers.

 

[Ihe]

I've come upon this short article touching on the profound changes in the series' plot and internal mechanics, and I think it raises some very good points. Have a read.

‘Game of Thrones’ Was Always Destined to Wear Itself Out

 

[Koopa]

i get what the writers of that article are pointing out, but what irked me was not the lack of political intrigue. it was time/travel impossibilities, and convulated schemes like catching a white walker.

 

[Gnrevolution]

It just goes to show what the effect of introducing high fantasy, and in particular 'magic' can have on a low fantasy setting. As pointed out what use is LFs manoeuvrings when Bran can see straight through, not by clever manipulations or methods but just because magic. As much as people try to put rules around how magic is used, it will always through traditional methods out of the window and make those without magic far less powerful than those with it.

But yes as Koopa pointed out it is the fact that we are now expected to believe unbelievable acts like Jaime's swim to freedom (that was almost as bad as Glenn and the dumpster) or plots that don't really make much sense such as the Wight-napping that are pulling at the show's platform as being the best thing on TV. TBF I didn't mind the massive jumps of people, after all they've not got long left and a lot can be attributed to off screen movements and the passage of time, but there does seem to be a case of adding drama for drama's sake. I just hope they can pick it up again for the last season, whenever the hell that is!

 

[Ihe]

I just hope they can pick it up again for the last season, whenever the hell that is!

It's not likely. Next season is short as well, and it'll be all about the white walkers, magic, and prophecies, all of which were almost non-existent in previous seasons. The problem is getting people used to a narrative format, and then completely changing it. This last season felt almost like a different show at times. Next season will depart even further IMO.