Wonder Woman Discussion Thread - Spoilers!

Cli-Fi

John J. Falco
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I wrote on my status update, that Wonder Woman is the best film so far in the current iteration of the DCEU, which for me personally starts at Man of Steel. It was a really good movie, out of all of the super hero movies that have come out in the past decade, I can easily see this one becoming the classic that all of us millennials will remember when we are older.

That being said it wasn't perfect: It almost had the right balance of comedy, but not quite. It moved too quick in parts and the secondary story-line was not serious at all. The comparisons to Captain America: The First Avenger are solid, namely: Chris Pine plays Steve Trevor/ Chris Evans plays Steve Rogers etc... Both take place during wars etc... Still It was loads better than Captain America was, and from a Marvel fan that's saying something.
 

Culhwch

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I saw this on the weekend, and I really liked it. It doesn't have much in the way of competition, but I'd agree that it's the best of new DC films so far, so at least they're heading in the right direction. Even for being set in WWI, it was a lot lighter than the previous fare, definitely erring more towards the Marvel end of the spectrum - although still retaining some rather grim moments. Definitely better than the first Captain America, though - I don't quite understand the love for that movie.

The were definite flaws, with the reveal of the villain the biggest for mine. But I really enjoyed the story, and I thought both Gadot and Pine were great in their roles. Some patchy supporting work - some really good (Etta and Sameer), some pretty ordinary (the Chief). I could take or leave the Amazons - I think it picked up after that portion was done.

I still have low expectations for Justice League, but I hope this sets a trend for the stand-alone DC movies like Aquaman, Batman and the Flash!
 

Tower75

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Possible rant:

What I say, I say as a life-long DC fan: DC cannot make movies. The Nolan Batman films had everything comic book about them removed with a scalpel, seemingly Nolan wanted to make a vigilante story but wanted it grounded so much in a gritty, dark, mafia-run real world that all you have in an idiot with a stupid voice dressed as a bat who punches thugs. If your response to this is "Batman is just a man in a suit", then you do not know the character of Batman and should immediately read some comics, or at the vary least, watch the Batman Animated Series, 'cause if Nolan's batmen films are Batman then my doodle of a pony in Biro is a Picasso blue-period masterpiece.

Superman is meant to be a boy scout, a goodie two shoes who fights for truth and justice and who will sacrifice himself to save others. Cavill's Superman is a brooding, whinging teenager who wears an almost black uniform who will happily trash Metropolis fighting some other Kryptons, but gets his knickers in a twist when Zod might kill some people with pew-pew eyes. Also, DC... Superman doesn't kill!

Batman: Batflect is the best Bats we've had, but again, DC: BATMAN DOESN'T KILL. Like, number one rule to the character, guys.

That was a bit of a rant, but it's important to know where I'm coming from when I say this:

Wonder Woman has redeemed them. Wonder Woman is the best thing DC has made. Well done, Patty, well done.

Dianna is a proper superhero. She fights injustice and wants to right wrongs and save people. I'm sick of this morally grey hero that we seem to get presented with nowadays. She's a good guy (gal) and she kicks butt. At no time is she a damsel, or seemingly has a change of personality and starts to do things: because plot. She's consistent throughout the whole film. I fell this is down to Patty and I'll take the stick for saying this: a man would not have been able to direct Wonder Woman as well.

I've honest to god read reviews that slate this film for there being, and I kid you not, not enough lesbianism in the film, and that Dianne doesn't wear white stars on her knickers, so the film's labelled unAmerican, which apparently is a thing? Sherlock Holmes doesn't have a Union Flag coat, so he's unBritish? And just by the by, do Americans need all their superheros to sport red, white and blue? Is it a rule that a superhero must be 'Merican!?

I can see why certain, manly men's men who still think woman shouldn't belong in the work place, and who are threatened by their daughters having a strong role model will hate this film; I've heard cries of forced feminism and anti-man propaganda... 'cause this is the world we live in apparently. But if you want a decent superhero movie then this is it, people.

It was emotional, it was dramatic, it was funny, and above all... it was a bloody comic book movie [at last!].

Loved it. Hurrah for Wonder Woman.
 

Cli-Fi

John J. Falco
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1. Wonder Woman has redeemed them. Wonder Woman is the best thing DC has made. Well done, Patty, well done. I fell this is down to Patty and I'll take the stick for saying this: a man would not have been able to direct Wonder Woman as well.

2. do Americans need all their superheros to sport red, white and blue? Is it a rule that a superhero must be 'Merican!?

1. Agreed with that, not with batman. I quite liked Nolan's interpretation.

2. As an American, I can tell you no. This, is why I am stoked for Black Panther! But Iron Man isn't blue or white!
 

HoopyFrood

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Superman is meant to be a boy scout, a goodie two shoes who fights for truth and justice and who will sacrifice himself to save others. Cavill's Superman is a brooding, whinging teenager who wears an almost black uniform who will happily trash Metropolis fighting some other Kryptons, but gets his knickers in a twist when Zod might kill some people with pew-pew eyes. Also, DC... Superman doesn't kill!

Batman: Batflect is the best Bats we've had, but again, DC: BATMAN DOESN'T KILL. Like, number one rule to the character, guys.

Yes. My main reason for my dislike of the recent DC films is because they were getting the characters so wrong. Before I went into Wonder Woman my one hope was that it would present her character faithfully. As much as I love watching her kick all ass, what I really wanted to see was the hero who seeks peace and love first and foremost.

Yes, Batman does not kill! How can you get that so wrong?! A.) he is shaped by death, it's the whole reason why he became Batman! B.) not killing is what keeps him separate from the bad guys. If you're ignoring this you're just outright ignoring the very character of Batman.

Yes, Superman should be overly good! No brooding, no grittiness. It's like filmmakers think that in order to have drama and conflict everything has to be dark and edgy, but you can still have Superman beaten down and struggling against the odds without just sabotaging his entire character.

Batman can be gritty. He fights for the individual, to stop tragedy marring their lives like it did for him, in a city that is basically grit-central. If you need to solve a crime, call Batman. He doesn't kill. Superman isn't gritty. He takes on all the suffering and sacrifice so the world at large doesn't. Because he has the abilities and he doesn't even question that he should use them to do good. You have an asteroid heading for earth, you call him (actually you don't need to call him, he'll do it anyway). He'll only kill if there's absolutely no other choice. You need to stop a war, you call Wonder Woman. She will find a way for peace to win through. She will kill if she deems it necessary.

Anyway, so as to the film, yes it was great. I don't think it was flawless like some say -- while I expected the old switcheroo with the villain (but didn't expect who it would be instead) it did mean that the Dr Poison and co stuff just kind of got shoved to one side. And it would've been nice to have fleshed out the Amazons just a little more so they didn't seem all-we-do-is-fight-and-flip. And ultimately I still can't help but wish for a Wonder Woman who's a little taller, a little more meaty. But that's my only complaint with Gal Gadot, because she's done a stunning job otherwise.

It sounds like director Patty Jenkins has been the main force in ensuring Diana's proper character came to the fore and not only does it mean she's produced an excellent film in that regard, it also looks like it's going to lead to Much Bigger Things in her career, especially in DC (hopefully) so that's so great for her. And proves that ooh, what a shocker, women can make excellent blockbuster films!

I am so glad that we had the No Man's Land scene. It was so good and so right. It's spot-on with the notion of the superhero, too. What nobody else can do, they will do it. What I loved especially was how she was drawing the fire onto her, letting everyone else move in safely. The hero puts themselves at risk so others don't have to.

Hells, I've gone done a rant myself. I like superhero comics, k?
 
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Randy M.

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Tower75: As a long time Sherlock Holmes fan who has learned to roll with the odd interpretations, I can only say Christopher Nolan's Batman didn't seem that bad to me; the 2nd movie in particular was terrific. I don't have a problem with a dark, brooding Batman who may be as violent as his foes.

Other than that, I agree. They did a terrible job with Superman. I suspect Cavill has a sense of humor and I think the creative team would be wise to tap into it the way the TV folks have Brandon Routh's; he's taken a fair amount of good-natured kidding on the show about his own turn as Superman and even contributed to some of it.

As for Wonder Woman, what a fun movie. I didn't mind the Paradise Island material, though yes, some more display of the culture/society would have been appreciated. I thought the WWI material could have been a bit grittier: If you look at horror movie make-up for the next 20-30 years after WWI, a good deal of it could have been based on the returning doughboys and their injuries (David Skal pointed this out in The Monster Show), so that walk across the bridge could have been a bit harsher education for Diana. Still, as it was I thought it a well-done sequence quickly detailing for her the price of war.

I agree with everyone about the trench warfare sequence, too.

Where I think it let down a bit was the ending fight with Ares. I was expecting a flip of some sort, but not necessarily the one that happened. Still, I'd have liked Ares to be a better opponent. There should have been a better battle of wits.

That said, I enjoyed the movie, thought Gadot perfectly cast and the chemistry between her and Pine a high-light of DC superhero movies, unequaled since the heyday of Christopher Reeve and Margot Kidder.


Randy M.
 

Calum

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Well that was a bloody disappointment. Granted the acting, writing, cinematography and pacing were great, the cast was charming, it gave us a female hero who manages to be inspiring as well as flawed and human, created a tone that was both fun while still taking its universe and characters completely seriously and captured the whimsical but believable sense of wonder of the Donner Superman films but now I’ve been denied the perverse thrill of watching the DCEU go up in flames.

Before I could at least resign myself to guffawing at the sight of Clark Kent standing fully clothed in a bath tub, Lex Luthor channelling Woody Woodpecker, the disco Cave Troll at the end of BVS and Batman instantly vanquishing his Ahab-esque bloodlust because Superman’s mummy had the same name as his. But now I find myself in a position where I’m genuinely invested in this universe, and if the Justice League movie reverts back to the schlock we’ve gotten up to this point I’ll be disappointed.

Perhaps the most refreshing aspect of the movie was the tone. It’s a welcome departure from the dour misery porn of the Man of Steel and Batman Vs Superman: I Think we all Owe Joel Schumacher and Apology, but unlike Suicide Squad it didn’t try to ape Marvel. The comedy emerges organically from the characters and situations, and the cast always takes the story and situations they find themselves in completely seriously. This is a welcome contrast to other recent genre works (Looking at you Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Star Wars Rebels and Moffat’s run on Doctor Who) where the characters arse around like a bunch of wisecracking teenagers even in life and death situations, undermining any genuine sense of danger.
 

Cli-Fi

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Perhaps the most refreshing aspect of the movie was the tone. The comedy emerges organically from the characters and situations, and the cast always takes the story and situations they find themselves in completely seriously.

I think Chris Pine deserves a bulk of that credit. He is a great comic relief and if he ever wanted to he could go on tour.
 

Parson

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I saw Wonder woman last night and the biggest take away from it for me was that both my wife and granddaughter walked out. They felt the movie was entirely too violent and didn't care to see people shot and maimed etc. --- I guess I was somewhat to blame because I didn't do any research on the movie and when people talk about the movie they talk about how Diana was a believable hero. That leaves me to wonder have so many of us become so perverse as to think that killing in job lots is necessary for a dramatic story?

For myself, I like this a lot. It is the best superhero movie I've seen. (I don't see them all by a long margin!)

But, I would have liked to seen Wonder Woman not only moved by human suffering and puzzled by human inconsistency, but also be more vulnerable and less godlike. Perhaps with the abilities of a James Bond, but not with the abilities of Super Man. I would have loved to see her win battles with logic and moral uprightness rather than by smashing and killing. I think that would have been more in character for a truly female super hero.
 

HoopyFrood

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But she's not a James Bond character, for 75 years she's been a god/super being made of clay with arm guards that can repel bullets, a lasso of truth, an invisible jet and a sword and shield. She fights monsters and gods and Greek myths. The main gripe people have been having with DC films is how they change the essence of the characters. It's not about how men and women fight, it's about a particular character and how they've been shaped through their experiences. Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman (and Flash and Green Arrow and Aqua Man and Cyborg and Black Canary and Hawkgirl etc etc) all have different approaches, as individual heroes.

Wonder Woman understands that both light and dark exists in people, that they have the capacity for good and evil and she helps people strive for the good. I do hope that in Justice League we'll see more of her conflict resolution abilities.
 

Parson

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...

I'm just going to stare and marvel at how one specific behaviour is "in character" for an entire gender.

Not an entire gender, to every generalization there are very large exceptions. ---- And my only background for Wonder Woman is the short lived T.V. series. I had no idea that there was such mythology behind her. I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse for me.
 

AlexH

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I enjoyed Wonder Woman. So much, that I just clicked the Marvel Universe forum to look for the Wonder Woman thread. It's easily up there with my favourite 5 or 6 superhero films of recent years.
 

Judderman

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I quite enjoyed Wonder Woman, and my wife did. We had seen there were great reviews but tried not to expect too much. I wound't put it as high as the best Batman or X-Men movies but I think it was above average Superhero. It was fun and particularly the first half was enjoyable and had a unique backstory. The later fights were a bit tiresome, but often superheroes have overblown fights at the end where the story doesn't matter any more.
Wonder Woman was of course beautiful which I appreciated but that seemed to me to be deliberately made as the most crucial part of the film, other than perhaps that she is an amazing fighter who doesn't need a gun. How many times was her beauty mentioned/implied? Plus various slow-mos, almost like Baywatch. I wouldn't call it feminist. But she doesn't rely on others and she has positive, firm morals so is probably a good role model overall.
 

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