Queen Slayers in The Winds of Winter? (Season 6 spoilers!)

Yog-Sothoth

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Who do you think will have the infamous title of 'Queen slayer' in the war that is about to happen in Westeros? Cersei became one when she obliterated Baelor's Sept (and with it Queen Margaery).

I think Jamie might become the first King-Queen slayer in Westorosi history if the prophecy is true :D
 

Boaz

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Yog, good topic. Because of the show being chronologically ahead (or even completely different) from the books, you might want to clarify the spoiler alert to something like Massive HBO show SPOILER ALERT! Seriously people, when I say Massive, I mean Red Wedding level SPOILER ALERT!

I will make a few comments upon HBO's plot endings... Caveat Reader.

Dany, Selyse, Cersei, and Margaery are the Queens and Dowager Queens at the moment. Asha, Arianne, Sansa, and Shireen seem to be the most likely to be added to the list in the near future. Remember Maggy the Frog's prophecy to Cersei? She claimed Cersei's children would all wear crowns and would all preceed her in death... being shrouded in gold. I believe that Myrcella will certainly be a queen and will certainly die.

I predict that Dany lives at least until the last four chapters of ADOS... and probably will survive the story. Cersei will not die in TWOW, but in the last half of ADOS... at the hands of the Valonqar. (My candidates for Valonqar include Jaime and Tyrion, natch, but also Dany and Jon.) Selyse will die either at the hands of Wildlings or Undead... sooner rather than later. I refuse to believe GRRM's end for Margaery until I see it in print.

Arianne will die in the game, she's too short sighted to survive the game. Asha cannot survive the blizzard, Stannis, Ramsay, Euron and the oncoming Winter. Shireen will most likely perish alongside Selyse. Myrcella will die at the hands of Cersei's enemies... Dornish, Targaryen loyalists, the Golden Company, etc.

Sansa is the only one who I believe will survive. Forget HBO's story for Sansa. She's with Middlefinger. She is a Stark. She is the Stark bloodline... not Jon, not Robb's child, not Arya, not Rickon and definitely not Bran. She is the redemption, the continuation, and the victory for House Stark. She won't be unscathed, but I think she'll be one of the three heads... Dany's surrogate baby mamma or Faegon's bride.

But Boaz, who are the actual Queenslayers?

Wights will kill Selyse and Shireen... and Asha.
Sand snakes or some other Dornish faction will kill Arianne... perhaps even the guy Doran is sending as her bodyguard.
Qyburn will torture Margaery to death.

And Cersei? And Mycella?

Well, everything we know about Maggy's prophecy seems to be coming true. Melara Hetherspoon died the very night of the prophecy. Cersei married the King. She had three children and the King had sixteen. (I don't know if the story has shown all sixteen of Robert's bastards, but I don't doubt Maggy on this point.) Joffrey was a king and is dead. Tommen is now King. Myrcella is betrothed to Tristayne Martell, now second in line to the Dornish Throne. (But let us not forget that Myrcella was already called Queen by Arianne and her conspirators. She may have never technically been proclaimed and crowned, but an attempt was begun on her behalf.)

Which brings me to the two parts of the prophecy not yet covered...

First is the younger more beautiful queen who will supplant Cersei. I do not believe this is Myrcella. She'd never challenge Cersei... and because of the use of valonqar later in the prophecy, I suspect Maggy would have used a more familiar term than queen... i.e. daughter for Myrcella, daughter in-law for Margaery, sister in-law for Sansa. In my opinion, only Dany (mayhaps Sansa) could be considered more beautiful than Cersei. The prophecy says something like, "... until a younger and more beautiful queen comes to take all you hold dear..." All that Cersei holds dear is her children and power. Since Dany is this younger queen, I believe that one of Dany's dragons will eat Myrcella. They may eat Tommen too.

But Boaz, if Tommen is King, how will Myrcella ever be Queen?

Easy. I believe that Aerys II, the Mad King is Cersei's father. This explains Cersei's incest and growing mental instability. If she defeats the Martells, the Sparrows, the High Septon, Grand Maester Pycelle, and her creditors in one fell swoop (as HBO would have us believe), then she'll be unopposed in power and she'll have done what not even the Mad King could do... and she'll lose most of her grip on reality. At this point, if she can get Myrcella back, she'll marry Myrcella to Tommen as she wanted to wed Jaime. Thus, Dany can feed Tommen and Myrcella to her dragons.

The second part is that the valonqar will choke Cersei to death. In my mind, Aerys II, the Mad King, had seven children. Three by his wife Rhaella... Rhaegar, Viserys, and Danaerys. Three by his secret lover/rape victim #1, Joanna Lannister... Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion. One by rape victim #2, Lyanna Stark... Jon Snow.

Cersei translated valonqar from Valyrian to Westerosi as "younger brother." But remember that Maester Aemon always translated "the Prince that was promised" from Valyrian to Westerosi incorrectly. At the end of his life, Aemon remembered that Prince in Valyrian is gender neutral... so the translation "the Princess that was promised" is equally valid, and moreso since Rhaegar and Viserys were dead, but Dany was alive. I believe that Cersei (not even one hundredth the scholar that Aemon was) has misinterpreted valonqar. Instead of "younger brother", I think it should be translated as "younger sibling." Then according to birth order, Cersei's younger siblings are Jaime, Tyrion, Viserys (deceased), Jon, and Dany.

Bearing in mind the mention of golden crowns and golden shrouds in the prophecy, I'd expect Jaime's golden hand to be mentioned if he is Cersei's killer. And when it comes crashing down... will Jaime have it in his heart to kill Cersei? I think not. Unless it's a murder suicide, "If I can't have her then no one will. We'll go out together." I used to think GRRM was going to do this for Jorah and Lynesse Mormont, after Dany banished him.

Tyrion has choked a woman to death before... and he'll arrive with Dany as a member of her Small Council. Tyrion is a likely candidtate for valonqar. The strongest case against Tyrion is that this is already what Cersei believes. Her political acumen is usually wrong... as is her understanding of Maggy's prophecy. Since Cersei thinks it will be Tyrion, it probably won't be Tyrion.

Jon. Cersei's already plotted to kill him. She schemed for the downfall of Eddard... and Jon blames her for Eddard's death. He most likely blames her for Robb's as well. If he ends up on the Iron Throne with Dany, he seems a likely candidate to choke the life from Cersei. But I think the climax of his story is in the battle with Winter... with The Other. It won't do to have him win both the supernatural and the political battles.

Dany is the valonqar. She will kill Cersei. She is the younger, more beautiful queen. (Yes, I know I argued about the use of more familiar language earlier, but Myrcella, Margaery, and Sansa are people close to Cersei. She knows them. Dany, even as Cersei's sister, is a stranger to her.)
 
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Narkalui

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I'm still not sold on Tyrion being Aerys' son, less so on Jon and, sorry, not at all on Cersei and Jaime. I wouldn't be at all surprised by Dany killing Cersei but my money is on Arya because firstly, she is a younger sibling (the prophecy makes no mention of whether or not it will actually be Cersei's younger sibling) and secondly, I think Arya really deserves to have that piece of revenge!
 

Yog-Sothoth

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Awesome post Boaz! I never really considered that the books will differ considerably from the show, because they got their outline from GRRM. This has made the next book even more exciting than before, because I can relive the same situations with a different twist.

I wish I could edit the first post, I would make that spoiler invisible because its a big one. Very careless of me, my bad!
 

Boaz

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Narky, the fact that I am still pushing hard on Aerys II and his seven children probably means that I have not yet sold myself on it!

And with all due respect, I disagree that the valonqar (little brother or younger sibling) could mean anything other than a blood relation to Cersei. Why use the specific Valyrian word valonqar when the rest of the prophecy was not in Valyrian? There are only two even remotely plausible explanations for the valonqar being someone other than Cersei's siblings.

First, the term valonqar is used at the end of the prophecy. The "younger and more beautiful" queen is mentioned earlier. I suppose valonqar could refer to the little brother or younger sibling of the "younger and more beautiful" queen. If this is the case, then the "younger and more beautiful" queen cannot be Dany since she does not have any younger siblings. If this is the case, then I think the very strong implications are that Sansa is the "younger and more beautiful" queen and that Arya would be the valonqar.... since, Asha and Arianne are the only two other queenly candidates who have little brothers and no one would ever mistake them as more beautiful than Cersei.

Huh..... well, I... uh... I actually kind of like this theory, Narky.

Second, valonqar could mean THE Little Brother... as in a title. Mance Rayder was sometimes called THE Mance. Styr is the Magnar of Thenn, but usually just called THE Magnar. Robert, Renly, Stannis, Joffrey, Robb, Balon, Euron, and Tommen have all been called THE King. The clan leader of House Wull is called THE Wull. So.... there is a mercenary band currently operating in Slaver's Bay called The Second Sons. Cersei translated valonqar as little brother... would it be a stretch for me to interpret that to mean second son? Would it be a stretch for the leader of The Second Sons to be called THE Second Son? That leader's name is Brown Ben Plumm, formerly in the service of Danaerys. Which would make Ben Plumm THE valonqar.

Wait, did I forget to mention that The Second Sons are currently employed by none other than Tyrion... Cersei's actual valonqar?

Yoggy, well Peter Jackson made his film fifty some years after J.R.R. Tolkien published The Lord of the Rings... and I'd say that was more than an outline and the films differed considerably from the books. I think most of the James Bond movies have differed considerably from Ian Fleming's books. The Jason Bourne movies did not even attempt to follow Peter Ludlum's story.

Brian posted The origninal aSoIaF synopsis to my great satisfaction. If you read it, you'll see what GRRM had in mind in 1993. He envisioned these plots... Sansa wedding Joffrey and bearing him a son... Robb wounding Joffrey in battle... Winterfell being leveled by Tyrion... Catelyn fleeing Winterfell with Bran and Arya in tow and seeking refuge at Castle Black... Arya figuring as the central figure in a forbidden love triangle... Jaime becoming King...

So when did GRRM sit down and turn over his notes on the last two books to HBO? 2011? 2012? 2013? 2014? I don't know. But the show reveals that the HBO writers definitely know where they are going with the story. How much of those notes has GRRM changed since he laid out his final outlines to HBO? I don't know, but I suspect he has changed a few details. I think the fact that the story has grown from three to seven books and the fact that the story has changed since his 1993 conceptions that GRRM will continue to alter the story as he sees fit... until he's satisfied. As I said in my last post, I'll refuse to believe it until I see it in print.

And don't worry about the spoiler alert not meeting my pretentious standards... no one else complained... and I already watched the show. So, no harm, no foul.
 

Judderman

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Great post Boaz! But your paragraph about the synopsis should have a spoiler warning. I managed to stop myself reading it all of it, as with the original thread.
 

svalbard

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Some very good theories mentioned above. I think the shows producers have confirmed that they got Shireen's death from Martin. At a guess I imagine Selsye will have a part to play in it.

I go for Jaime to kill Cersei and Jon to kill Dany.
 

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