Uh-oh, romance

[Stephen Palmer]

There's a world of difference between romance - the genre - and love. I enjoy a good love story as much as anyone; one of my all-time favourite novels is Tanith Lee's The Silver Metal Lover.

I have myself attempted something on the topic…

 

[Stephen Palmer]

We all have innate behaviours that are rooted in biology. The blank slate theory doesn't have a leg to stand on, scientifically. It's unsurprising that, given our different reproductive roles, men and women have innately different reproductive strategies, and that these differences influence the stories we tend to enjoy. Social conditioning plays a role too, but I doubt we'll ever be able to socially engineer a society where there are no gendered differences in the types of stories people seek out. Just as I doubt we'll ever be able to socially engineer a society where people don't seek out salt, fats, and sugar in their diets.

It was a generalisation - a useful one - and, like all generalisations, not always true.

I would put the nature/nurture balance at somewhere around 10%/90%.

But that's just my 2pence…

Ps - regarding the point on sugars/fats (a good point btw) check out this fascinating read:

 

[aThenian]

My favourite book of all time, Shogun, is one of the best love stories ever

Yes, I'm with you! I'd not really thought of Shogun as a love story, but you're right, if you take away that part of the story it would be very much diminished. Shogun's a lot of things, but above all a book about culture clash I'd suggest (or about someone being immersed in a new and alien culture anyhow, which in some way makes it very much akin to lots of sci-fi /SF even though it isn't) and what better way to dramatise that than a love affair across the cultures.

 

[WaylanderToo]

or then you have something like this....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006IBU9PQ/?tag=brite-21

the initial concept is ok (I do like the whole world within a world) but the blurb then ruins it (for me)

 

[Montero]

The other question here is - how influential are the romances of the dominating alpha male variety?
In the sense of people worrying that violence on TV encourages violence.
So does it encourage (some) men to dominate (assuming they'd read it....) or (some) women to be submissive to it? Or do women read it for fun and in reality would tell any would-be brooding alpha male to **** off and catch up with the 21st century?

Though having said that, just remembered there is the plot of the film "Romancing the Stone" where apparently western alpha-male romances are very popular with some men in Latin America. If you believe Hollywood.

Wandering back to sf, I have to say that I'd rather picture a future without the dominating alpha male trope, now I've actually been stirred to think about it in more detail thanks to this thread.

 

[The Big Peat]

One angle that has not been considered on this is that in a lot of ways, the brooding alpha male thing is about wooing the unwooable, something which exists in various forms as a fantasy of just about every possible gender/orientation combination. Everybody enjoys being able to do something that no one else can.

 

[hopewrites]

As a mating strategy, alphamalism wouldn't exist if it didn't work for a decent percentage of its target audience.


Why would it work?

The same way motherly types work.

The person the type works for fantasies about being taken care of. Wether it's milk and cookies or bulging muscles, the emotional hit is "if this, then I'm safe, everything is ok, and I don't have to worry about XYZ"

I liked the infographic that landed on Anna's fb and she was kind enough to share. It shows a flowchart of the thinking behind the different subgenres.


To the question that was asked "would women attracted to domineering males in romance novels tell rl domineering males to ****-off?"
No. Most don't. If they do it's in that confusing no-meaning-yes suppressed-self way.

If we are going to continue in packs, we will continue with pack mentalities. Some pack members will be subservient to other pack members. Some pack members will emerge as strong leaders. Strong / successful leadership will attract more followers. Someone will confuse the prestige of many followers with the work of being a good leader -thinking that a large flock is all that's needed to be recognized as good. When in truth, good is recognized as good, popular is sampled -then judged.


I think that even in the "west" which prides itself on its openness and accepting attitudes, it's daring to be open about one's sexuality. Daring to admit "here is a list of what I find attractive. Here is a list of what I want from a mate. Here is a list of what I can provide should you met the requirements of the previous two lists." even to oneself.

 

[Montero]

Once again makes me yearn for the rational living on Beta Colony (Vorkisgan, Bujold) - though even there they totally misunderstand what is going on with Cordelia at the start of the series.

 

[Ed Ryder]

I find romance in scifi okay, but I do wish they'd mix it up a bit sometimes.
Would it hurt for Christine to go off with the Phantom at the end occasionally? At least he put the work in!

 

[Boneman]

I find romance in scifi okay, but I do wish they'd mix it up a bit sometimes.
Would it hurt for Christine to go off with the Phantom at the end occasionally? At least he put the work in!

Ooh, I sense a thread coming on - endings of books that you'd change... I always thought she was pretty ungrateful.

 

[Vertigo]

I find romance in scifi okay, but I do wish they'd mix it up a bit sometimes.
Would it hurt for Christine to go off with the Phantom at the end occasionally? At least he put the work in!

I think there's a big difference between a bit of romance in an SF story and a bit of SF in a romance story. I don't mind some romance in my SF but I don't want to pick up a book expecting it to be SF and find that it is in fact a romance with an SF setting. If the story (not the setting) is primarily a romance I'm afraid I'm not interested.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I'm not sure human beings have "mating strategies"… :/

 

[Ed Ryder]

Yes they do - it's called alcohol and nightclubs

 

[Old_Man_Steve2016]

None of the tropes of romance have much appeal to me. They all feel clichéd or just totally unlike real life.

My wife has noticed (more so than I have) a trend in romance in many romantic movies/TV shows/occasionally books where characters 'see' drama where it doesn't exist, or deliberately manufacture drama for various (often idiotic, IHO) reasons. She didn't mind it years ago. Nowadays, she sees a lot of people in relationships making the same foolish mistakes as the people in the movies/TV shows, or deliberately causing problems where no problem was there before. She thinks 'life' is imitating 'art' too much.

Maybe it's people overreacting to the 'lover with a dark secret' romantic trend that was popular with soap operas, back when they were the rage (who remembers Young & The Restless?). Or maybe people are hooked on internet fame and want drama in their lives so they can get more likes? As a guy, I always assumed women (and/or men) wanted less romantic drama in their lives, not more.

Miles V always seemed to want a dramatic life, and not the associated drama that came with it- at least, that's how his perspective seemed to me.

 

[hopewrites]

I agree with Mrs. Steve, people learning how to have relationships from dramatic over-actments, then having more drama than necessary because they think it is necessary. *slow head shake*
There's a maturity thing there though. I see as people (me included!) grow and mature emotionally they grow out of needing those dramatic highs to feel like they're relationship is valid.

 

[Montero]

And there are people who make assumptions and people who ask questions with no pre-filter and actually listen to the answer......... And some people manage to be one or the other several times a day..... Not just in romance, but in everything.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

But dramatic highs and lows are the essence of Romanticism…

 

[hopewrites]

Highs and lows are relative.
The couple that have to tussle to new highs of hate to get to love will have different highs and lows than the couple who share a handful of passions and reach emotional highs by mutual participation.

One couple gets season tickets to the opera to get closer, the other knows every cop in town since they've all responded to their domestic disturbance calls.
Baseball tickets, raids on the alliance base (Hord!), moonlit walks, BBQ, mst3k marathons... It doesn't matter what the thing is, it's the emotional kick the couple shares that's important

 

[Montero]

SP - its the manufactured highs and lows that get to me

@hopewrites - Nicely put.
From a personal perspective it is not that OH and I do things to be closer together, it is that we like doing the same things and do them together. Worked that out in the early days, and its why we have later days. And there isn't much clash - for example neither of us want to watch any sport - so there isn't one of us finding something to do while the other yells at the TV..... (And such a relief after growing up in a family where everyone else watched sport, there was one TV and sometimes cricket was on one channel and tennis on another at the same time. Sunday afternoon matinee? But we'd miss a game!)