The voices in their heads

[The Big Peat]

You know those moments when a stray thought comes from nowhere, and its like a little version of you is inside your brain going "Wait a minute", right? At least, I hope you do, or I may have accidentally confessed to being insane.

Anyway. How do you write those? I'm finding it difficult to write those moments without sounding suddenly very distant from the character. I know a lot of people use italics for these, but I've also heard people criticise that.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

You know those moments when a stray thought comes from nowhere, and its like a little version of you is inside your brain going "Wait a minute", right? At least, I hope you do, or I may have accidentally confessed to being insane.

Anyway. How do you write those? I'm finding it difficult to write those moments without sounding suddenly very distant from the character. I know a lot of people use italics for these, but I've also heard people criticise that.

If I'm right you mean this sort of thing

Peat was walking along, minding his own business, but stopped short. He'd forgotten the damn watch. I'm an idiot.

If so - you only need italics if you're either going from third into first, or if you're not in close third anyway (I have a crit from you - I'll see if I can find some instances when I look at it after I'm done with the edit-from-hell).

If you're already in close third or first, I'd have it as:

Peat was walking along, minding his own business, but stopped short. He'd forgotten the damn watch. He was an idiot.

Basically, I see he thought as a filter word, if you're in close third. If you're not, it's like a dialogue tag telling us who thought, what. So how you do this depends on how close you are anyway. If you're too distant, it can jar.

Actually, since I'm editing and my characters are, as ever, obsessed with thinking, here's an eg which is probably smoother:


Mum pointed to her right. “Over the brow of the hill and down. We’re just above the path. I’m not stupid. I know how to read a map.”

He led the way, partially reassured. She wouldn’t have done this on purpose So this is where I shift to direct exposition, which is what you're wanting to do. But it's kept in the same voice of the character, and very close, so there is no need to flag it up as a thought. She knew Amy didn’t have her pills and needed to be found today. And here I go back to action - again with no need to flag it up. Some of it is about keeping us with the character and following each thing logically - at least, when I edit the thing that most jars is when I've rushed to force a thought in. He forced his way through a stand of gorse bushes and went on for five minutes until he reached another clump of gorse blocking the path.

 

[Phyrebrat]

+1 ^

And if anyone frowns on italics, send 'em my way for a good beat.

pH

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Like Jo said. For some reason my first person characters tend to think in third person so I put those thoughts in italics.

I've got this one I'm currently editing (narrative is in third):

“Greatpa, what’s castrated mean?”

In his reverie he’d forgotten his great-grandsons were with him. How do I explain castration to a four-year-old? His brow furrowed deep in thought as though he was giving the answer great and very serious consideration. “It’s a medical procedure. Why don’t you ask your daddy – he’s a doctor?”

 

[The Judge]

To my mind italics are fine for the odd thought from nowhere or self-commentary as in Jo's I'm an idiot. But personally I get very antsy if they are overused. I've seen some published novels where they appear at every other paragraph and as well as being irritating, to me that shows a lack of technique. As Jo says, if you're close enough to the POV character you don't need the thoughts to be in first person present tense, and third person past works fine, or even better -- though instead of eg "He was an idiot" I'd probably just have "Idiot." on its own as being even closer.

By way of another example:

He wiped the sweat from his brow -- the bomb's wiring was unconventional. Cut the yellow? Or the black?

Black.​

The "Black" might be a thought or the decision, and if you wanted to differentiate, italicising would confirm it's a thought, but to my mind it isn't necessary if he follows through and cuts the black, only if he rejects the thought as being wrong and then cuts the yellow.

 

[Brian W. Foster]

+1 ^

And if anyone frowns on italics, send 'em my way for a good beat.

pH

I tend to prefer deep POV where the narrative is the character's thoughts. In that case, I find it jarring to go from the character's thoughts to a direct thought. Thus, I do tend to prefer books that don't use italics ...

 

[ratsy]

I find I have stepped away from the italicised thoughts a little more these days.

So I am trying to do what Jo did in her second example more. I feel it is closer than the jumping into first. Most of the time, you can get the same point across without the first, and to my brain, I like reading it better that way. I'm sure I still do a bit of both, but working on being conscious of the second example she gave.

Don't worry Phyre, I'll still love your book!

In @AnyaKimlin example I have been doing this

In his reverie he’d forgotten his great-grandsons were with him. How do I explain castration to a four-year-old? His brow furrowed deep in thought as though he was giving the answer great and very serious consideration. “It’s a medical procedure. Why don’t you ask your daddy – he’s a doctor?”

In his reverie he'd forgotten his great-grandsons were with him. How does one explain castration to a four-year-old?

I'm reading King's new one and his MC thoughts are strange but it works.

What the hell is Jim doing? he thinks while the clock ticks on the desk in front of him.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I find internal thoughts can bring out the humour better than embedding them in the text. Snark and internal swearing work best in first person present tense in my opinion (which that isn't an example of)

 

[Phyrebrat]

So often we bang on about word economy. It's clear italics are a quicker way of getting the same thought across with less words. To my mind it's analogous to writing dialogue without attribution such as he said and she said.

As always there are so many personal preferences in prose. I was brought up with plenty of italicised prose by Mr King, and I never broke it down to mechanics and thought 'oh he's moved from third to first' or, really anything at all; I was reading a story and was engrossed.

When I hear people make comments like 'I was thrown out the story' I wonder how honest that is. Really? It's such an emotive turn of phrase.

That said, I agree it can be overused. If you find yourself relying on italics, I'd consider introducing more characters into the scen. I use it mostly when it's a solo story (e.g Jumbled-up Jack) or in solo scenes.

I'd disagree at it being labelled as lazy writing. I'm sure it can be but ... We're genre writers not Literary Gods. There are a lot of newbie writers on chrons and I don't like the idea of being so prescriptive (or proscriptive, I know it's been explained to me so much but I haven't a clue how to remember which is which. I need a mnemonic!!)

I know if I'd seen this thread when I first joined chrons I'd have told myself that italics are as bad as adverbs etc.

Again this is all my opinion - I'd probably have my stories 'thrown across the room' by loads of people if I was let loose on my own rule book

pH

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I know if I'd seen this thread when I first joined chrons I'd have told myself that italics are as bad as adverbs etc.

There's nowt wrong with either I like a good adverb and a bit of wordiness.

 

[ratsy]

I agree Phyre, we sometimes over analyse things. I don't 100% agree that its more economical to use first. The example I gave with Anya's is the same amount of words. If I had said 'He wondered how one should explain castration to a four-year-old' then I would say, yes, it is longer. But in close, you should be able to do it with the same amount of economy.

So, if you are new here, there are many ways to do all of these things, and none are technically correct. A lot of the times, it comes down to gut, and comfort. And I also don't mind the odd adverb. And I've read On Writing!

 

[The Judge]

There are a lot of newbie writers on chrons and I don't like the idea of being so prescriptive (or proscriptive, I know it's been explained to me so much but I haven't a clue how to remember which is which. I need a mnemonic!!)

I can't think of an easy mnemonic apart from Pre = Everyone does it, but if you look at words with the same root, a doctor prescribes a prescription for something which you need/is right for you/makes you better, so prescriptive relates to enjoining people to do what is right/best/makes their writing better, whereas to proscribe is to order someone not to do something/to forbid or prohibit, so proscriptive relates to forbidding an action.


And yes, ultimately it is personal as to how one reacts to things like italics, and if one feels that copious italics are the way to go, then by all means one should use them, in just the same way that if one thinks a half-dozen adjectives and adverbs in a sentence are best, then go for it. But it ought to be a conscious decision taken in the light of knowing what the alternatives are, and how the use of italics/adverbs might affect the reading of the piece.

So for any newbie writers reading this, the rule is never Don't Do This (whatever This might happen to be), it's Know What You're Doing and Think About What You're Writing!

 

[Phyrebrat]

I am so happy ! Pro = not, pre is everything else

If I ever forget it, please feel free to ban me from chocolate or PlayStation.

pH

 

[Vaz]

Italics are another tool in the writer's shed. I like them and use them, however, I do enjoy the way Abercrombie writes in that he just seems to shift into first without using italics at all if I'm remembering correctly from his first book and that method does feel closer.

Like anything though whatever fits your natural writing style is always best. Don't shy away from implementing anything in your writing because somebody somewhere said it was "bad" or "lazy."

vZ

 

[Ragandar]

Italics are another tool in the writer's shed. I like them and use them, however, I do enjoy the way Abercrombie writes in that he just seems to shift into first without using italics at all if I'm remembering correctly from his first book and that method does feel closer.

Like anything though whatever fits your natural writing style is always best. Don't shy away from implementing anything in your writing because somebody somewhere said it was "bad" or "lazy."

vZ

I believe he did use italics for Glokta, which I actually rather enjoyed, since it made Glokta stand out a lot more compared to the other characters. It's one of the reasons I really liked The Blade Itself.

 

[J Riff]

Jo and Judge sum it up nicely. Antsy if overused. Narrator description of character thought, good stuff to be aware of, and to use, carefully. *

 

[DZara]

Jo and Judge sum it up nicely. Antsy if overused. Narrator description of character thought, good stuff to be aware of, and to use, carefully. *

Any technique can turn bad if overused. I have to watch the italics in first-person. And any and all alliteration.

 

[The Big Peat]

You guys rock, you know that? Thank you all, it feels a lot clearer in my mind. We'll see how it goes from here.