Pagans, heathens and infidels

[Stephen Palmer]

An "error of law".

Pagan Federation page.

 

[aThenian]

They would have to include paganism, otherwise it isn't religious education. There are, after all many,many recognised pagan belief systems. For instance, Hinduism would be classified as a pagan religion as it isn't abrahamic, it is polytheistic and the christian and muslim churches say it is wrong. So by deifinition, it is a pagan religion.

I think they are teaching Paganism as a distinct religion. i.e. - last week Hinduism, this week Paganism, next week Buddhism.

 

[Cathbad]

For instance, Hinduism would be classified as a pagan religion as it isn't abrahamic, it is polytheistic and the christian and muslim churches say it is wrong. So by deifinition, it is a pagan religion.

Although Christians and Muslims may consider Hinduism a "pagan" religion, it is actually the world's third largest religion. Thus, by definition, it is considered a mainstream religion.

 

[Nick B]

We arn't talking about definitions here, we are talking about the term pagan. Christians term all non abrahamic religions as pagan. Simple terminology. Whether they are accepted as mainstream, valid, real, whatever term you choose to use, is irreleventto the use of the term pagan.

Hinduism is incredibly interesting, I believe they may have the most profound sense of time in any religion I have read about. A Brahma year is 311 trillion years if I remember correctly. Yes. Trillion. Twelve zeroes.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Whether they are accepted as mainstream, valid, real, whatever term you choose to use, is irreleventto the use of the term pagan.

Yes. Also Jews and Moslems, possibly Ba'Hai (as they are derived from Islam) too regard, by definition, any non-Abrahamic religion and certainly anything polytheistic as pagan. It's got nothing to do with support or logic.

 

[Nick B]

I think it is unfortunate that the neo-pagan movement, or religion, or whatever you call it (and I do not use the term movement insultingly, as neo-paganism is a whole plethora of religions (some which are in fact not even compatible) and you seem to get to pick and choose which parts suit you best) used the term pagan at all. It would have been better to make up a new name for a new religion. Scientology did after all, as any new religion should. Using a term that another religion uses in broad, sweeping ways, as your religions name, is probably not in its best interests.
Like I said above, nothing wrong with making up new religions, if those religions are concerned with encouraging people to be better people. All religions were conceived at some point after all, and almost all fall back on the same stories and ideas if you look for the connections, so there is some common ground in the deep past.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

used the term pagan at all

Do they actually call themselves neo-pagan? Some "neo-pagan" religions believe themselves to be quite old, or at least revived versions of old ones Though it's hard for the Celtic scholar to see how the Druidism "revived" in the 19th C. can be the same as 2000 years ago Druidism, but OTH, the original Druids only allowed UNIMPORTANT things to be written, nothing of their actual beliefs was written (deliberately), even though they were educated and tought Celts how to read & write. One of the early famous Roman playwrights was actually a Celt (not an Irish one, though, I think.). The Romans simply made up a lot of stuff about Celts and Druids.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm sure I read** (and/or heard) somewhere that a lot of the "heretics" sought in Spain were actually Jews and Moslems whose conversion to Christianity was suspected of being less whole hearted than it might have been. (These suspicions that may or may not have been warranted; in any case, they may have been driven by rather baser motives than the search for religious orthodoxy.)


** - I now see that the Wiki article on the Spanish Inquisition is of this view:

The Inquisition was originally intended primarily to ensure the orthodoxy of those who converted from Judaism and Islam. The regulation of the faith of the newly converted was intensified after the royal decrees issued in 1492 and 1502 ordering Jews and Muslims to convert or leave Spain

 

[Nick B]

Religion used for political reasons perhaps Ursa?

And Ray, the norse men (I don't like the term viking for them, as they wern't all vikings, but all vikings were norse.) also hardly kept any written records, so very much has been lost over the centuries. I am slowly reading the poetic edda though.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

somewhere that a lot of the "heretics" sought in Spain were actually Jews and Moslems whose conversion to Christianity was suspected of being less whole hearted than it might have been.

Being an ACTUAL Calvinist or whatever the Protestants were then, or even a Witch was less dangerous than being a Catholic accused of Heresy.
Many actual Jews, or converts to Christianity, fled to Amsterdam. The Netherlands benefited immensely, immigrants are often a benefit. Also possibly from Portugal at the same time.

Elizabethan England was hard on Catholics more because it was assumed they might be traitors, rather than a genuine religious viewpoint.

Still true in Islam. The Ba'hai had to leave Iran. Curiously one of their main centres is Haifa as Israel is quite egregiously tolerant, though there is a quota system for Christian missionaries, the Islamic countries don't allow any, No crosses allowed outside Churches in Saudi Arabia.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

And Ray, the norse men

Some of whom became the Normans, who were about as French as People from Cornwall or Wales were English.
I'd guess it's quite late that Norse stories and histories started to be recorded, later maybe than in Ireland?
Most survives as Icelandic stuff?
Is there anything that was written down before the 11th C. that survives, or is most 12th C to 14th C writing? Though the content might be 500 years older?

I've read very little of the Scandinavian stuff, having concentrated on Celtic after I didn't have to read Greek & Roman (School and my Dad). I'd say most people in a certain era at certain kinds of UK schools got plenty of Exposure to the Greeks and Romans with a few Israelites, Egyptians and Babylonians sprinkled in via R.E.

Are any of these recommendations any good?
The 10 Best Norse Mythology Books - Norse Mythology for Smart People

I have translations of Beowolf to read (related) and Seamus Heany Audio book to peruse sometime. Also "The Saga of the Volsungs" from Gutenberg. None of it looks like "speedy" stuff to read!

 

[Nick B]

Well, I read a book about how to read norse stuff before I started on the poetic edda. Snordi's records are pretty much regarded as the best source but it takes some understanding first. Things like kennings can get confusing, so how to interpret them is important. i'm at work so I'll have to get back to you on the boks title.

 

[Harpo]

For anyone who needs to know, here’s a population density map of pagans in England & Wales (according to the census)

 

[psikeyhackr]

For anyone who needs to know, here’s a population density map of pagans in England & Wales (according to the census)

View attachment 102009

I did need to know that. Thanks!

 

[Guttersnipe]

I've always thought that "heathen" and "infidel" were insults.

I love mythology, and I guess you could say paganism as well. When I was a kid I'd pore over books on Classical mythology and turned out having quite a bit of knowledge about it. However, it's been a while. One person who thought he knew more than I did said "pegasi" are winged horses, and that Pegasus was one of many. I checked and he was wrong. A small victory.

Since I've graduated, though, I'm all about Norse mythology. At first I was turned off because Scandinavia doesn't strike me as exotic as Classical, as where I live there's a lot of people of Germanic descent. I just love how instead of one Otherworld, there are eight other worlds and we're all on a giant tree. The gods are not inherently immortal. There are two tribes of gods. The future will be terrible. And draugar are awesome. I used to where a Mjolnir necklace; I took it off once I read about reactionaries co-opting it. I now wear an Irminsul pendant, which is basically the same thing, but nobody says anything anymore. As of late I try to distract myself as I've been known to dive into things for hours without meals.

Ancient Celtic, Finnish, Egyptian, Sumerian, Japanese religions I've read about, but don't "transport" me as much as Norse or Classical mythology.

Oh and hoodoo and voodoo are cool.

Whoops. I believe I'm rambling.

 

[KGeo777]

Another aspect of it is that you do not refer to Biblical "mythology." Only Greco-Roman or Norse are a "mythology."
Which implies that the Bible lore is the only truth.

It is interesting that the common image of Jesus which we know in art is that of a European man in a state of helplessness and mortal collapse.
No pre-Christian deity is shown in such a morbid way. The Pieta image--Jesus in death with his mother (or is it the prostitute--even the fact that the mother and the prostitute both have the same name--that's a funny coincidence--no concerns about brand confusion in those days I guess).
On the other hand, Michelangelo, when he did Moses and David, depicted them like Greek divinities.
Not helpless or physically weakened like their carpenter associate.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I've always thought that "heathen" and "infidel" were insults.

They are, when used properly by people who are not heathen or infidels.

My mother called me a heathen on occasion.

But since I am a proud infidel heathen who got straight D's in religion my freshman year in high school my perspective may be lacking in objectivity.

 

[GetterDolphin]

The Bible in some translations uses Pagan to designate everyone who isn't a Christian or a Jew.

Heathen is primarily used by Norse Pagans, and Paganism refers to dead polytheistic religons of the Western World, mostly from Europe. These are niche religons that are not extensively studied--99% of aetheist arguments fall apart when used against religion like Shinto.

 

[GetterDolphin]

Another aspect of it is that you do not refer to Biblical "mythology." Only Greco-Roman or Norse are a "mythology."
Which implies that the Bible lore is the only truth.

It is interesting that the common image of Jesus which we know in art is that of a European man in a state of helplessness and mortal collapse.
No pre-Christian deity is shown in such a morbid way. The Pieta image--Jesus in death with his mother (or is it the prostitute--even the fact that the mother and the prostitute both have the same name--that's a funny coincidence--no concerns about brand confusion in those days I guess).
On the other hand, Michelangelo, when he did Moses and David, depicted them like Greek divinities.
Not helpless or physically weakened like their carpenter associate.

Jesus' claim to fame is dying for the sins of humanity so it shouldn't be a surprise he is mostly portrayed as being on the verge of death.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just a friendly reminder that this is supposed to be a discussion of the use of the terms "Pagans, heathens and infidels" for writing purposes - not a platform for "I have an opinion on something to do with religion, I will use this thread as an excuse to expose it"!

Remember, this is an inclusive forum that doesn't discuss religion so as not to make any particular faith or non-faith group feel disadvantaged or denigrated here.