TV series to ruin further reading....rant.

svalbard

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Anyone else feel that George should have made a greater effort to get the next installment of the series out before TV show aired last week. Afterall he has only had a few years to get his act together. Unprofessional is how one friend described it, disrespect towards his readers is how another described the 'debacle' are a couple of the more polite conversations I have engaged in. Personally I find it quite slovenly. For example Martin can knock out thousands of words about the Hugo's last year, but struggles to string a sentence together in what is his Magnus Opus.

If I was to look at it another way. Most of us would be sacked from our jobs if we carried on like George. Time to get a move on Mr. Martin or you risk the final two books becoming redundant.
 
Anyone else feel that George should have made a greater effort to get the next installment of the series out before TV show aired last week. Afterall he has only had a few years to get his act together. Unprofessional is how one friend described it, disrespect towards his readers is how another described the 'debacle' are a couple of the more polite conversations I have engaged in. Personally I find it quite slovenly. For example Martin can knock out thousands of words about the Hugo's last year, but struggles to string a sentence together in what is his Magnus Opus.

If I was to look at it another way. Most of us would be sacked from our jobs if we carried on like George. Time to get a move on Mr. Martin or you risk the final two books becoming redundant.

No writer owes any reader anything. Ever. The books take as long as they take. Readers have two options: wait or move on.

The books will never be redundant. They'll be an different take on the ending than the TV series.
 
I beg to differ. Once a person invests their hard earned cash then a writer does owe something back to them. There is also small matter of time spent reading an author's work especially if it is a series.
 
I don't feel like Martin owes me anything. I'd say quite the opposite. I've found plenty of new authors between books. Authors I wouldn't have tried if I hadn't been waiting for the next one. The publishing industry wouldn't have tried to fill the gaps so hard. GoT has been a major player in shifting the balance for the fantasy genre as a whole. The series couldn't have become what it has without the author being the person he is by engaging in the community whole-heartedly.
 
How absurdly entitled.

Really??

I don't feel like Martin owes me anything. I'd say quite the opposite. I've found plenty of new authors between books. Authors I wouldn't have tried if I hadn't been waiting for the next one. The publishing industry wouldn't have tried to fill the gaps so hard. GoT has been a major player in shifting the balance for the fantasy genre as a whole. The series couldn't have become what it has without the author being the person he is by engaging in the community whole-heartedly.

In a way I sort of agree. Martin has changed the balance and I am in his debt for showing me another side of the Fantasy genre. It lead me on to authors such as Erikson, Bakker, Abercrombie. He opened a door to a more varied reading in the genre. That said I still think he needs to get his skates on and finish what he started.
 
I'm writing a fantasy series based around 7 protagonists, and am finding it seriously challenging.

It's not simply that each protagonist has their own development arc - that in itself would be easy if they kept only to their POV scenes - but what makes it really difficult is that these arcs must also develop through other character POV scenes.

GRRM has 28 POV characters through ASoIaF.

While about a dozen of those may now be dead, that means he still has to weave the development arcs for those surviving characters - and their plot lines - to be fully referenced and interactive with one another.

Even more difficult - he's introducing more character POVs in TWoW, making the whole process more complicated.

Simply put, it's a monstrous creative puzzle to grapple with and ensure proper continuity.

Almost all other writers do not have this problem, because their stories are based on a single protagonist, and any other POV characters are simply defined by their relationship to that protagonist - friend, love interest, mentor, antagonist, etc. It's one person's story, sometimes seen from different angles.

ASoIaF is many peoples' stories seen from many different angles, and that's part of the reason many people find it so special.

From a reader's perspective, I totally agree with svalbard that the apparent slowness is frustrating.

But from a writer's POV, I can only attest to the fact that writing multiple protagonists is seriously difficult, and the volume of characters that GRRM has to grapple with must be an uneviable headache.

2c.
 
Ultimately that is what it is. Frustrating. Not life changing or feeling entitled or anything more serious. Just goddamned frustrating.

I can empathize with trying to weave multiple story arcs and povs. Tried and failed.

However if as a writer I put out a series and people buy it then I owe them a beginning, a middle and an end. As it stands we will get an ending to GOT, but not from the author. It will happen on the TV show long before the book hits the shelves. Now I can avoid watching the show but that would mean living in isolation for the next number of years. So to spare myself unnecessary hardship and possible madness I will watch the show and feel slightly cheated. But it will not be the end of the world, although I am very careful about starting new series these days.
 
At this point I have decided to just watch the shows and not bother with the last books. Reading them will suck up too much time that I could be reading something more original.
 
I am not sure that Martin owes us, but I am fairly sure his publishers are pretty annoyed the latest work is not available before the end of the series. Volume 6 will shift a lot of units, but perhaps not as many if the books was tied to the TV series.

Also, now that the TV series has moved ahead of the books, the novels will be trailing in the wake of the show.
 
The two are disconnected to me now. There is no way Davos would say, "hey you know you do magic is there any way you can bring back this guy I met once? Oh you can't, well magic is kinda of extreme so maybe you could try?" And she'd just go along wih it. Why not bring back stanis etc. GRRM hasn't been this lazy before.
 
I don't think as a reader I would have any right to complain about how long a writer takes at all, nor do I believe an author owes his readership books in a timely manner. But I do feel that we as readers have been let down by finding out the answers to some of the biggest mysteries/questions in a different medium to that which we started the story with. There's no point saying "they're different, so it doesn't matter." Yes, they are different, but the BIG mysteries that have been endlessly debated on here will be answered in broadly the same way as they will be in the books. If you're up to date with the show, you'll know what I mean.

I don't think Martin would have sold the rights if he didn't think he could keep ahead of the TV. His last message on the subject just about said as much.
 
I don't think as a reader I would have any right to complain about how long a writer takes at all, nor do I believe an author owes his readership books in a timely manner. But I do feel that we as readers have been let down by finding out the answers to some of the biggest mysteries/questions in a different medium to that which we started the story with. There's no point saying "they're different, so it doesn't matter." Yes, they are different, but the BIG mysteries that have been endlessly debated on here will be answered in broadly the same way as they will be in the books. If you're up to date with the show, you'll know what I mean.

I don't think Martin would have sold the rights if he didn't think he could keep ahead of the TV. His last message on the subject just about said as much.

Very much agree with this. I feel let down that the biggest mysteries of the novels, which I've invested many hours of my life in, have been answered in what I feel was one of the weakest and badly managed moments in the whole tv series. You know exactly what I mean if you watched the last episode.
 
I have NOT watched the newest episodes of the show, for which I am grateful. I am actually now more than an entire season behind. And I assure you,i have not had to live in Isolation. Yes I do hear some things about the show, but so far, nothing too revealing. I also don't have TV so no chance of seeing a pesky commercial that can spoil some things accidently. The one big thing I remember hearing about from last season was the controversy over Sansa being raped by Ramsey Bolton, which we all know didn't happen in the books.

I beg to differ. Once a person invests their hard earned cash then a writer does owe something back to them. There is also small matter of time spent reading an author's work especially if it is a series.

How absurdly entitled.

Really??.

Yes. Really.

I agree with Fishbowl (though I would never be quite so harsh). Felling that an author owes you something, just because and especially considering, you like their work is almost the definition of false entitlement. The "Hard earned cash" you paid was for the books that were already out. You pay money, you get a book. That is how commerce works. your purchase of A Game of Thrones does not act as an investment to further book purchases. You don't get to cash out, because the Author has already provided the goods that you have purchased, IE. the novel A Game of Thrones. The most you can say is that your purchase of his work so far has contributed to his success as you are a reader of his work. you and millions of other people bought his books and so he became a popular author. His popularity was then translated to Publishers giving him an advance on the next book in the series and, because he is now so popular, the publishers are probably giving him some leeway and slack in his deadlines because he is a heavyweight now. When his next book does come out, he will make the publishers millions of dollars, so they will wait as long as it takes for him to finish his books. So, if anything, you are all part of the problem (not me though because I bought all my copies second hand, HAHA!) If he didn't have so many fans who will buy the next book as soon as it comes out (and yes I am one of them), then he would be feeling more pressure from his publishers and might turn out his next book a bit faster.

What we should do is boycott his next book so that his publishers can say: "Look George, you are losing fans because it takes you too goddamn long to finish a book. The show has advanced the plot past your novels and, what's worse, they have completely gone off track. Your fan's aren't going to know what's what any more so here's the deal, you will get book 7 out in the next 18 months, it will be the last in the series and that will be that, now get chopping because you won't see dime 1 until it's done."

But I guess if that happened we might risk George saying "Well... I quit. I don't even want to finish this series so, screw it." Which, by the way, is the only scenario in which I think a fan could feel cheated by an author. If George just up and decided not to finish his series, I would be right along with you exercising my false entitlement (and it would still be false entitlement because, as I said, George owes us nothing).With how some of his fan's have been treating him, I wouldn't even blame him too much if he did just stop writing aSoIaF. While many of us are happily and patiently awaiting his next masterpiece, there are a few more vocal fans who, like you, are telling him to get a move on, telling him he is being lazy and, worst of all, insulting him by suggesting he might die before he finishes the series.

Since Ive already gone on a rant of my own, I won't even bring up your point about the time you spent reading his books, which you somehow feel you should be compensated for

I beg to differ. Once a person invests their hard earned cash then a writer does owe something back to them. There is also small matter of time spent reading an author's work especially if it is a series.

yes...

How absurdly entitled.

...indeed
 
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Well the TV show is one of the top topics in conversation within my circle of friends.
 
personally i'm not too worried about not reading the book before watching the season, as i have always been behind in the books - i came a bit late to the GOT/ASOIAF party and was three seasons of relatively binged GOT in before i picked up the first ASOIAF book. i made sure that i was always at least a season behind in the books as i didn't want to be watching GOT with expectations of what was going to happen. i really enjoyed it this way, as i enjoyed the series without cursing it for leaving things out, then read the properly fleshed out storyline in the books (at which point i cursed the series for leaving things out!).

however, i do think it's really poor that GRRM hasn't kept up with the series. regardless of the multiple arcs he has included (incidentally, some of which i thought were pretty pointless), he's had plenty of time to get the book out. as a result, the balance has shifted and the books will now trail the series and be compared to them, rather than the other way round. which will mean, regardless of whether they're entitled to, readers will feel pissed off. and so will his publishers, as i'm sure it will lead to less sales. plus, if he keeps up with his current timings, the last book will not come out until about 10 years after the series has finished!
 
I'm not sure what your issue is exactly. Is it about him as a writer and his 'obligations', or are you approaching it as a frustrated fan who just wants the next book? Both? If it's the former, then I can kinda understand, and sometimes I don't like the romanticising that's done with writers (writers block, the muse etc.)

HOWEVER, when someone buys your book, that's their decision. The thing about entertainment, is that's it's a market measured by objectivity (sales) but is reliant upon subjectivity (people).

The issue I find with your argument, is that you're applying the rules you might to someone like a doctor/teacher, who has an obligation to perform to a certain degree because it's part of the agreement they've made. There's a reason you need qualifications for those jobs. As an author, you can write whatever you want, and there is no hard-set skills beyond basic grammar required. Clearly, you don't need to write a super thought-provoking story in order to be successful, you don't need talent either. Unlike a teacher/doctor who have to follow a certain curriculum/rules and are expected to be up to a certain standard based on the regulations we have in place. You cannot classify yourself as a Doctor if you're not qualified as such. But if a writer doesn't release a book when expected, there's nothing wrong with that, because there's never been any regulations/rules to suggest it's an issue (unless stated otherwise in a contract). It might be frustrating, but the writer never agreed to such a thing, even if they made promises themselves, there's no rules to enforce punishments on them for not fulfilling it, so there's no issue.

An author has a contract, but that's not between them and the reader, it's with their publisher. The publisher can make demand so long as it fits the terms agreed to, but there's no such agreement with the audience, besides the imaginary one readers conjure up in their heads.

Now OTOH, if you're complaining as a fan, then I'd say the same thing as before. Whenever I hear this talk about 'books taking long', I just wonder why people don't just read other books and get over it, or better yet, make their own if they're up to it. I get the initial annoyance, but it's been a while now. The same thing with Patrick Rothfuss, I know it's taking ages, but people seriously devote hours of their life if not longer to complaining about something so trivial, whilst they could be spending the time reading someone else and find something perhaps even better than the series they're waiting on.
 
An author has a contract, but that's not between them and the reader, it's with their publisher. The publisher can make demand so long as it fits the terms agreed to, but there's no such agreement with the audience, besides the imaginary one readers conjure up in their heads.

Exactly

Now OTOH, if you're complaining as a fan, then I'd say the same thing as before. Whenever I hear this talk about 'books taking long', I just wonder why people don't just read other books and get over it, or better yet, make their own if they're up to it. I get the initial annoyance, but it's been a while now. The same thing with Patrick Rothfuss, I know it's taking ages, but people seriously devote hours of their life if not longer to complaining about something so trivial, whilst they could be spending the time reading someone else and find something perhaps even better than the series they're waiting on.

Blasphemy!

In all seriousness I agree with you %100 percent. Am I excited for book 6 to come out? of course! but there are so many other excellent series and books out there that there is no point in getting worked up that Martin has not finished his next book. Just read something else.
 

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