The Challenges, Commenting and Medication.

[Perpetual Man]

I was not so sure as to where this deserved to be posted, but as the bulk of it is in reference to the challenges I figured here would fit. If not there are plenty of worthy mods who'll slide it somewhere else.

The two main things I wish to bring up are not connected as such, but as they were both on my chest I thought I'd get them off at the same time and in the same place. I'm prone to blather as a lot of you will know, so I apologise in advance if I rattle on a bit, there is a point to this.

Honest.

As I'm sure many of the regulars are aware I have slipped back a little bit as far as the Chrons goes. Oh, I've been lurking, and I've somehow managed to not skip a challenge but the stories have been late and not without some last minute rallying on my part. I've also not been commenting - and reading the stories and voting has been a trial in itself. (Nothing to do with the quality I hasten to add.)

Any way, before I digress to much: The comments.

 

[Perpetual Man]

The comments have become a regular part of the writing challenges, enjoyed in many ways nearly as much as the stories themselves. And why not? There is something intrinsically wonderful in being told good things about your story, it makes taking part all the better. It does not matter if you win or lose, someone out there has taken the time to read your story, enjoyed it and said something positive about it.

Where is Perp’s role in all this I hear you ask?

Victoria is undeniably the queen of the comments. She is brilliant at it, and never misses a month, managing to write wonderful things for everyone and somehow never misses the 300 worders as well.

There have been others that have tried their hands at it, either just for a month or for a longer period, most fall by the wayside after a while, but when doing it they add something of themselves, a depth to the side of the challenges about the stories, rather than the stories themselves. It is not as easy as Victoria makes it look as those who have tried it will appreciate.

My role in all this is a prodigious one. I was the first one to start writing comments a long time ago now. It was never meant to be an ongoing thing, it was a one-off thing during a month, where I think the idea of giving comments was inspired by the theme.

But everyone liked it, I enjoyed doing it and it helped me vote at the end of the month so I decided to keep going. I set myself a few rules:

I would comment on each and every story.

I would only say positive things: it would defeat the object to say negative things about stories.

I would not try to sell one story above another because I thought it excellent.

I would even try and comment (no matter how nonsensical the answer I gave) on stories that went over my head and I did not understand (Chris and Ursa seemed to fill that list a lot!)

At no time did any of the moderators step in and say I should not be doing it, in fact they offered support and help when needed and made sure that as long as I did not infringe on any rules there would be no problem.

As far as I am aware there were never any complaints, just a lot of thanks from everyone involved. (Okay, on one or two occasions I may have missed an entry, but a little nudge would make me rectify it.)

As Victoria and Starbeast joined me, then Victoria powered on and I stopped commenting others came and went, all doing what I had set out to do, in different ways and with different voices, but hopefully adding to the entertainment and appreciation of the challenges. After all at the end of the month, if one can look back, sigh at not getting any votes or mentions, but can beam at the wonderful inspiring comment from Victoria then it has been worthwhile.

There has never really been any moderation of the comments – they don’t need it, unless someone gets vindictive or malicious, but recently I have noticed something that has seen me raise an eyebrow Spock-like.

There has always been a place for individual comments about an individual story. If a given reader really likes it, they are welcome to say so. On one occasion I had an ultimate compliment when someone refused to post after make because they thought my story was that good there’s would pale in comparison. I flew through the month on a high because if I was going to get that response, I was going to win the challenge. I don’t think I got a vote that month…

Recently though, I think there have been a few cases where people have offered comments selectively. I have no idea why they choose to do this, but they comment on, I guess the stories they like, and ignore the ones they don’t or don’t understand.

Speaking as someone who started the whole comment thing, and has done it more than anyone else, with the exception of Victoria, I find this to be wrong. If someone really likes an individual story, fine mention it, ‘comment’ on it, but moving through the entries commenting on some but ignoring others is not right. Be it a 75 word or 300 word, people put time and effort and a lot of thought and heartache into these pieces, when comments start appearing it is great to see them, it makes it all worthwhile.

But when someone comments on the three stories, skips one, comments on two more then skips another two, it can be soul destroying.

I guess what I am saying is if you like a story say it.

If you want to comment on stories feel free – but if you are doing a number of mini-reviews and do 50% or more, but ignore the rest then there is something wrong. I f you decide to write comments write them for everything, find something positive to say, even if you don’t have a clue what the writer is trying to do you can always find something nice.

I think on one occasion I was completely lost and wrote something along the lines that I was totally unable to follow the intellectual brilliance being offered, that it was truly a masterpiece because it was elevated above the lowly comment givers head. I didn’t understand a word of it, but it shone because of it.

(Mods feel free to give this a good kicking/erasing if it needs it)

 

[Perpetual Man]

Totally unrelated, more observational really.

As last year slipped into autumn, I began to suffer from insomnia – going to bed was not a problem, I got to sleep just like that, but I would wake in the early hours and would not be able to go back to sleep. Having been diagnosed with long-term depression earlier in the year, and having done well with counselling, my GP decided that the problem was linked and recommended that I went on a course of anti-anxiety/depression medication.

This was fine by me, I mean if it worked, great. It was a relatively low dose of citalopram, and it knocked me out perfectly. But there were other side-effects. I’ve always been an early riser, but for the first time in my life I struggled to get up. On one day when I had the chance of a lie in, I was still in bed at 11am and could have easily stayed there longer!

There was another side effect as well. I started to find less interest in doing things, as far as the Chrons goes I pulled further and further away. I stopped posting, stopped reading threads, stopped creating new ones or keeping the ones I started going; I stopped commenting on the challenges, stopped writing.

I have no idea why I kept taking part in the challenges. It would have been so easily to just not do them. But I think the fact that I had not missed one since I started doing them (am I one of 3 who has entered every 300? Can’t remember the statistic off hand), made me keep going, that almost compulsive feeling that if you stop then that run of entries will be over.

But I was posting later in the month. The ideas that I had were hard fought for and felt bland, the execution a little off. I was not enjoying them, it was something I just did – and if I had given up it might have been a bad thing for me…

I’m pretty sure the doctor would disagree – he told me the sleepiness was nothing to do with the citalopram, but when you read through the notes it does say it causes drowsiness… but it seemed as if, as one of the side-effects it was breaking down my imagination and I was finding it harder to pull ideas from it. I was aware I had a vivid imagination, but it weren’t working…

When I did post, at the end of the month, close to deadline, I normally did just to get a story in. And it has shown.

The number of votes I received dropped off, and even short listings became negligible. And having looked back through the stories I can see why.

Three weeks ago, the decision was made to take me off the medication. Suddenly I can get up in the morning again, and perhaps most importantly I had a few ideas at the start of the month, wrote a 75 and 300 word story, not only enjoyed doing it, but got them posted early too.

Even better I’ve been short-listed (for the 75 too early for 300 yet) and got more votes this month than I have had in the preceding four.

Everything, of course, might be a fluke coincidence, but it seems odd that it does coincide with the medication changing.

If ever there, for me at least, was a message at how certain drugs can you effect you this was it.

(Just as an aside, it is worth noting that although I was taking citalopram, I am on a number of other medications for other things, and there is a chance it might have interacted with some of them so it might not be solely to blame.)

Like any drug of its type, you have to be weaned off citalopram over a period of time, so I’m currently down to a half dose, this time next month I’ll be less again. It’ll be interesting to see what effect that will have on my writing and imagination, hell I might even write some comments.

 

[hopewrites]

It has always been my understanding that comments are not the same as critiques. (The reason for the separate threads for post-challenge peer-review.) I've always appreciated the creative and mental energies needed to produce comments on the wide variety of stories that get posted in a challenge. (We're getting comments over in the workshop on the anonymous challenge as well, following the same rules/ guidelines as mentioned above.) I know I'm not the only one who has read a comment and had to take a second look at my own writing and go "huh. Yeah. I guess I could have meant that. Well Cool! There's more there than I put there." and it's a good feeling. There have also been times when I've read an entry and sat there blinking... you know that feeling when something passes so far over your head you're not sure what was there to miss, and then someone posts a comment that links it up for me or clues me in on what to google. There is so much cool stuff out in the SFF universe(s) that I don't feel crushingly-guilty for not knowing every reference that pops up (I know, I know, I probably shouldn't feel guilty at all, but what can I say...) so the ability to triangulate in on something that went over my head based on what others got out of it helps... those months when I feel ambitious enough to try and understand everything going on.

*TL;DR "I agree"

 

[Jo Zebedee]

1 I've been on Citralopram and am in no hurry to go back on it (or any). It was fine, but it made me feel a little flatter in general.

2. I agree re the comments - if you're going to do a mini-review system it can knock the confidence of some if left off. Us ol' toughies forget how the challenges can be writers first act of showing their writing to anyone and the slightest thing can become magnified.

3 hats off to you, Victoria, Starbeast and others. I did the comments once and it was hellishly hard.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Mostly I agree with Perp...

Funny - I have been thinking about the comments, too. Not in exacltly the same way as you - although I have noticed the selective commenting, but I've not given any thought as to whether that's a problem, or not - but that I was considering PM-ing a Mod to ask that the first post in the discussion thread includes a line that any comments made on the strengths and indeed meanings of some stories are the opinions of the commenter, not the author.

I'll agree that to get comments is wonderful; I enjoy them, but there are times when I have read something which is completely unrelated to my take on someone's tale and I often wonder if it will colour people's shortlisting come voting season. But the other part of me thinks that is a good lesson; if we're writing to publishable standards, then being skipped over on the comments by a part-commenter, or being misunderstood can be a good indication of your appeal/success.

I love the inclusive and supportive community here on Chrons, but sometimes the teacher in me balks at the gushy-back-slapping-universal-encouragement that goes on - especially highlighted when it comes to voting time and the encourager hasn't shortlisted, let alone voted, for the people they'd been slapping on the back earlier on, upthread.

@DG Jones has a nice method IMO. He writes comments on the stories he's shortlisting or voting when it's time to vote, and his reasons. It's what I used to do, so I'm partisan in liking his method but it seems considered and an authentic way to approach this.

Comments on my stories have always been a pleasure to read, and often have me feeling I've subconsciously sublimated other elements that readers pick up, which makes me feel very clever and posh (Victoria's especially good at making me feel this way). The only time I ever feel a bit uncomfortable is when someone makes a pointed response to the commenter along the lines of Oh, you thought that, did you? Well that's not what I was going for.

pH

 

[Ihe]

Even better I’ve been short-listed (for the 75 too early for 300 yet) and got more votes this month than I have had in the preceding four.

Like any drug of its type, you have to be weaned off citalopram over a period of time, so I’m currently down to a half dose, this time next month I’ll be less again.

That's the start of a pattern right there. Does this mean you'll be winning every challenge forever after in a couple of months' time? Got these votes at 50% power. At 100% you might make us want to quit the challenges altogether. Good to see/read you feeling the edge once again.

And yes, I agree about the commenting. Besides, where's the fun, nay, the challenge, in only reviewing pieces we already fawn over? In part-time commenters' defense though, I don't think anyone meant to deliberately disregard others. And time restraints might sometimes play a part in this. But yeah, if you have taken up the reviewer's mantle but can't guarantee the time to mention everyone, you might want to put the mantle down and keep the comments to your votes/shortlists at the end. We are all artistes here, and God knows how frail all of our egos are--What? D'you think that semi-colon could just as well be a comma? What do you know? You a fancy lad critiquerer now? Wanna start something? Huh? HUH?!

 

[Dan Jones]

Firstly, Perp - sorry to hear that you've been poorly lately. It always staggers me the amount of people out there who suffer from depression, often in secret - it's great to see you back on the boards with more regularity. I hope you continue to recover, both mentally and creatively.

I love the comments aspect of the challenges. I tried my hand at it for about 3-4 months a year or so ago, but the MA in me drove me to write rather complex analyses of the entries (I did one on one of Phyrebrat's 300 entries which was really quite over the top, but he loved it, so it's all good ), and it just became a rod for my own back; the time and effort it takes to read, think, interpret, and write in a witty or telling way about every submission is surprisingly large, and I just didn't have the time for it, regrettably. I still secretly pledge to myself that if I become a full-time writer I'll go back to doing my analyses of the Challenges, but we'll see.

However, I found it hard not to offer any comments, so as a compromise I just list my top ten for each challenge, and do a short analysis there, which keeps me happy and, hopefully, the writers of said stories.

So it is with a brim full of admiration that I tip my hat to stalwarts such as Victoria, Perp and (when he's not busy blasting around High Earth Orbit), Starbeast, who always treats these things with a healthy dose of humour and group self-deprecation, no bad thing among a bunch of writers. And I notice Shyrka has started doing reviews, too. Bravo, all.

 

[Perpetual Man]

Mostly I agree with Perp...

Only mostly?

Funny - I have been thinking about the comments, too. Not in exacltly the same way as you - although I have noticed the selective commenting, but I've not given any thought as to whether that's a problem, or not - but that I was considering PM-ing a Mod to ask that the first post in the discussion thread includes a line that any comments made on the strengths and indeed meanings of some stories are the opinions of the commenter, not the author.

When I was doing them regularly I went through a phase of putting something like that at the start of that months comments, along with a playful comment about giving me a kick of some description if I forgot someone...

@DG Jones has a nice method IMO. He writes comments on the stories he's shortlisting or voting when it's time to vote, and his reasons. It's what I used to do, so I'm partisan in liking his method but it seems considered and an authentic way to approach this.

When I was writing the post I did not think of DG Jones, but to some degree I think this is slightly different, showing a shortlist and what he thought of them is a nice touch, I like it.

Comments on my stories have always been a pleasure to read, and often have me feeling I've subconsciously sublimated other elements that readers pick up, which makes me feel very clever and posh (Victoria's especially good at making me feel this way). The only time I ever feel a bit uncomfortable is when someone makes a pointed response to the commenter along the lines of Oh, you thought that, did you? Well that's not what I was going for.

This is a good point, sometimes you just see a story and know what it is about and gush about it. It is then that the writer says it's not what I meant at all. Kick in the teeth, but ultimately it is their story and they knew what they were writing. Of course the reply should not be given until after the challenge has closed, or by PM. (That's personal message, not Perpetual Man). Strangely I think it's okay for the writer to say "You hit the nail on the head, got it exactly!"

pH

That's the start of a pattern right there. Does this mean you'll be winning every challenge forever after in a couple of months' time? Got these votes at 50% power. At 100% you might make us want to quit the challenges altogether. Good to see/read you feeling the edge once again.

It'll be that infinite path I'm afraid, each step will cover half the distance, so I'll always only be halfway there.

And yes, I agree about the commenting. Besides, where's the fun, nay, the challenge, in only reviewing pieces we already fawn over? In part-time commenters' defense though, I don't think anyone meant to deliberately disregard others. And time restraints might sometimes play a part in this. But yeah, if you have taken up the reviewer's mantle but can't guarantee the time to mention everyone, you might want to put the mantle down and keep the comments to your votes/shortlists at the end. We are all artistes here, and God knows how frail all of our egos are--What? D'you think that semi-colon could just as well be a comma? What do you know? You a fancy lad critiquerer now? Wanna start something? Huh? HUH?!

Succinctly put and spot on.

Firstly, Perp - sorry to hear that you've been poorly lately. It always staggers me the amount of people out there who suffer from depression, often in secret - it's great to see you back on the boards with more regularity. I hope you continue to recover, both mentally and creatively.

Thanks Dan! Biggest problem for me is looking at stuff I was writing before I went on the medication and not remembering where I was going with it! Or even worse picking something up and wondering what the hell it is?

I love the comments aspect of the challenges. I tried my hand at it for about 3-4 months a year or so ago, but the MA in me drove me to write rather complex analyses of the entries (I did one on one of Phyrebrat's 300 entries which was really quite over the top, but he loved it, so it's all good ), and it just became a rod for my own back; the time and effort it takes to read, think, interpret, and write in a witty or telling way about every submission is surprisingly large, and I just didn't have the time for it, regrettably. I still secretly pledge to myself that if I become a full-time writer I'll go back to doing my analyses of the Challenges, but we'll see.

When you become a full time writer I look forward to it.

However, I found it hard not to offer any comments, so as a compromise I just list my top ten for each challenge, and do a short analysis there, which keeps me happy and, hopefully, the writers of said stories.

I like this, long may it continue.

So it is with a brim full of admiration that I tip my hat to stalwarts such as Victoria, Perp and (when he's not busy blasting around High Earth Orbit), Starbeast, who always treats these things with a healthy dose of humour and group self-deprecation, no bad thing among a bunch of writers. And I notice Shyrka has started doing reviews, too. Bravo, all.

Thank you kindly

 

[J5V]

1. Being upset by passing-over in selective comments, I think, depends on your expectations.

I'm not too bothered by it, because I have Imposter Syndrome. I feel I don't really belong, that I'm 'having a go', dipping my toe in the water.

Mentions and positive reviews do give me a lift (and I detect when people write about my style rather than my substance when I set puzzles for the reader!), but because my expectations are low-to-middling, the mentions are a surprise, rather than an expectation.

2. On the subject of reviewing a month of entries myself, I've thought of doing it once or twice, but, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the "all or nothing" approach scares me, simply because I do not understand some entries, and the notion of "the author needs to communicate better" strays into uninvited critique territory. I'm always happy to crit (and often do in my private notes, while assessing for voting), but it needs to be consensual. I'm not sure I could dig deep enough to pull out something positive to say about these entries. I hope to learn this delicate art!

 

[mosaix]

I'm not too bothered by it, because I have Imposter Syndrome. I feel I don't really belong, that I'm 'having a go', dipping my toe in the water.

You need to get rid of that straight away, J5V!

I hope you don't feel that any of us feel that way about you, because I'm sure no-one does. You get along here just fine.

My own, personal, feelings about reviews is that I am in awe of Perp (who, I think, started the whole thing off) and Victoria. I wouldn't dare even considering doing such a thing. Coming up with something positive to say about, say, a story I barely understood would be beyond me.

 

[Shyrka]

As folks have noted, I've started to offer my comments on the 75-word challenges. This was born out of a sense of responsibility - I'd enjoyed receiving @Victoria Silverwolf and @Starbeast 's comments so much it seemed churlish not to at least attempt to reciprocate. I've attempted to follow their example by reviewing every entry but I have missed a few, I know. It's a time-consuming task. You'll note I haven't even attempted to do the 300-worders yet.

I would comment on each and every story.

I would only say positive things: it would defeat the object to say negative things about stories.

I would not try to sell one story above another because I thought it excellent.

I would even try and comment (no matter how nonsensical the answer I gave) on stories that went over my head and I did not understand (Chris and Ursa seemed to fill that list a lot!)

In attempting to analyse and follow Victoria's example I developed essentially the same ground rules you describe above. For me, it wasn't necessarily what had been written about my story that mattered (although some are lovely to read), rather the simple acknowledgement that my work had been read, digested and, at least to some degree, understood. Most of my comments are little more than a synopsis of the story as I understand it, with a few choice adjectives thrown in to relieve the monotony. Occasionally I attempt to be funny.

On the whole, I've tried to keep my subjective comments to the shortlists and vote posts that come after the challenge has been completed but if anyone has any comments or is unhappy with/mystified by my comments, do feel free to send me a PM, either directly or via a mod. The last thing I want to do is upset anyone. My intention all along has been to give the same sense of satisfaction that I feel when reading others' comments on my own work.

 

[Luiglin]

As @Perpetual Man says comments / reviews should be a musketeer approach - One for all and all for one. If you're going to do it, you need to do everyone. Which, as I've found out, is not an easy job.

I took a short cut when doing my forays by employing the Dark Lord and his Minion to add their thoughts on each piece. They weren't reviews as such but more comic asides to raise a smile - they did for me but believe not all were impressed or got the joke. Hence I stopped.

I do find that that getting a brief sentence back about a piece of your work can be quite eye opening and often shows that what you write is not often what others read.

Edit: Although thinking about it this could be either that they didn't understand the story or did and just didn't like it - in both cases they are probably just being polite

 

[Cathbad]

what you write is not often what others read.

But that's okay! Once you've written prose and put it out there, it belongs to each individual reader. And it may well mean something different to each.

 

[Luiglin]

But that's okay! Once you've written prose and put it out there, it belongs to each individual reader. And it may well mean something different to each.

Totally agree. I just find it funny sometimes what others read in my tales. Quite often I'm undecided if it because I've written it poorly or if it is genuinely something I've not seen.

 

[Kieran Song]

Comments and kind words mean the world to authors who are brave enough to show their works to the world! Thank you to all those who recognize this and make an effort to build that little smidgen of confidence. It means the world to some.