Arrogant critics?

Ray McCarthy

Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
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we have
Epic Pooh - Moorcock Review of Tolkein/Lewis

now there is this.
Did Tolkien write ‘juvenile trash’?

Even decades later, long after Tolkien’s book had become an international cultural phenomenon, the academic medievalist Peter Godman was still assuring readers of the London Review of Books that it was merely an “entertaining diversion for pre-teenage children”. Michael Moorcock, likening it to the works of A A Milne, dismissed The Lord of the Rings as “a pernicious confirmation of the values of a morally bankrupt middle class“, while Philip Pullman, always keen to sneer at those authors from whom he had borrowed so liberally, called it “trivial“, and “not worth arguing with”.
Philip Pullman's comments don't surprise me. He'd roast anything Tolkien or Lewis did as part of his anti-Christian agenda so obvious in Dark Materials series.

It seems to me that critics, including myself, will mark down any work that has values that are contrary to their world view. Though I try to be honest about what really annoys me about a book, film or TV show. I think some critics are dishonest about their motives.
 
And I found Pullmans work to be quite pants to be honest.
 
I wonder who will be remembered the longest Tolkien or Pullman?
 
we have
Epic Pooh - Moorcock Review of Tolkein/Lewis

now there is this.
Did Tolkien write ‘juvenile trash’?


Philip Pullman's comments don't surprise me. He'd roast anything Tolkien or Lewis did as part of his anti-Christian agenda so obvious in Dark Materials series.

It seems to me that critics, including myself, will mark down any work that has values that are contrary to their world view. Though I try to be honest about what really annoys me about a book, film or TV show. I think some critics are dishonest about their motives.


I read his Dark Materials Trilogy and thought it was good , but I have no particular desire to read it again.

I find myself not agreeing with anything he has to say about Tolkien or Lewis.
 
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As the article says:

Self-consciously highbrow types often have surprisingly intolerant views about what other people ought to be writing

However, it makes for an interesting, if brief, biography of Tolkien and his experiences of war. Good article. :)
 
OK. I love LOTR with a depth of passion that's probably a little worrying. I liked HDM too. To be fair to Pullman I think his opinion is being misrepresented. What he's talking about seems to be theme. Here's more context:

"I disagree with the answers that Lewis supplied, the salvation — if you like to use that word — that he offers his children in the Narnia books," Pullman says. "But I can see that he was engaging with great, important issues: What is right and what is wrong, does God exist, what happens after we die? He was seeking an answer that would satisfy emotionally and intellectually, and I respect that struggle." And Tolkien? "For all its length and intellectual complexity, I think Lord of the Rings is an essentially trivial work. It's not about anything important."

And you know, despite loving LOTR, I think he has a point. LOTR is wonderful but it's about good and evil -- there's not much ambiguity, which is one of the reasons it's so emotionally satisfying -- it's backward-looking to the idea that we are leaving behind a rural golden age for industrialised hell. In other places, Pullman has praised the LOTR world and its richness and complexity.

(EDIT: and I think most of Pullman's criticism is for the organisation of religion, not for belief or Christianity itself)

I get the feeling those quotes were a tiny bit de-contextualised to create excitement where there really isn't any.
 
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Here's more context:
That makes Pullman sound more of a prig. He is either misrepresenting Tolkien and Lewis, or doesn't understand the basis for Middle-Earth and Narnia. Read that before. After I put HDM: Golden Compass in the trash can, I gave up 2/3rd through. I still have my G.R.R. Martin books ... which I read entirely, long before the TV series. I'd not buy any more GRRM though.
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding too, then. I thought his point was the CS Lewis was exploring important ideas, and Tolkien wasn't really?
 
I'm not a massive fan of Tolkien but I do think there's more to LOTR than just Good versus Evil.

For me, it's about how ordinary people can make a difference to great events and maybe there's some creedence in the war influence that's mentioned? Think of the people surviving The Blitz, keeping the factories going, tending the fields and feeding the nation whilst the ordinary soldiers not only move orchestrated by generals but also display acts of unparalleled and unilateral bravery - bravery that sometimes made a difference much greater than could be expected from an individual within a conflict involving millions.

I see a lot of this in LOTR.

Just my thoughts:)
 
LOTR (the books at least) leave me not exactly cold, but not very warm. I think it's very hard to properly assess LOTR because: (1) it had a not-wholly good and disproportionate influence on fantasy as a genre; (2) there really wasn't much like it before it; (3) because of the intense adulation in some quarters, it's difficult to sound unenthusiastic without seeming to hate it; and (4) it doesn't make any significant "points" the way, say, Lord of the Flies or 1984 do. What it does do is create an immersive secondary world and summon up a sense of sadness and melancholy. I think a better comparison is with Titus Groan and Gormenghast, which are set purely in their own worlds and come across as equally backward-looking. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it doesn't strengthen the claim that LOTR is a literary masterpiece (whatever "literary" means).
 
I agree, Foxbat, though I do wonder how much Tolkien's emphasis on individuality comes out of the fear of industrialisation/ urbanisation (in which people are part of a system, not doing their individual thing). I also think there's an aspect of great-heroism-destroys-the-hero, with Frodo being incapable of having a real life after his experiences.

On the other hand, I think Pullman's point has merit, and I also agree with Toby (and with Pullman, incidentally) that the central strength of LOTR is the amazingly rich world that Tolkien created -- a world I was happy to spend lots of time in (unlike Gormenghast which was a very uncomfortable place to be!)
 
Well, I'm going by what Lewis and Tolkien said. Which in both cases is completely unrelated to what Pullman says. I've read earlier quotes by Pullman "dissing" Narnia and claiming it wasn't from anti-religious motives. Neither Narnia nor LOTR are allegories. A common claim made when Lewis and Tolkien were alive. Narnia is a set of fairly trivial fairy stories, inspired partly by Lewis's childhood animal world and the idea of what would the god of a world inhabited by sentient talking animals be like. LOTR (not the Hobbit) on the OTH is adult and examining deep issues. Though not particularly in a Christian framework. Narnia only seems like Christian Allegory, Lewis did write much Christian Apologetics and some Allegory. Narnia was written primarily as a fairy story for kids (and the Interplanetary Trilogy primarily as SF for Adults) not as Christian Propaganda as Pullman claims. His "world view" is clear, as is Pullman's in HDM or Tolkien's in LOTR. Lewis particularly disliked writers "sailing under false colours" or claiming to sell you entertainment and offering something else. There are some amazing scenes in the Narnia books DESPITE the attempt to write merely a children's fairy tale (Puddleglum and the Witch in The Silver Chair, The argument about Aslan and White Witch in Aslan's How in Prince Caspian, The Dwarves that end up refusing to believe in anything so they won't be fooled again in the Last Battle, or the Dragon sequence in The Dawn Treader. Tolkien is more scholarly in his recreation of lost myths as he is driven by "deeper magic". LOTR is a myth that might have been. Tolkien was exploring ideas important to Tolkien. He was a little obsessed by what early myths in Britain might have existed.


I think most of Pullman's criticism is for the organisation of religion, not for belief or Christianity itself
So he claimed in early interviews. Later it's clear his real target is Christianity.
 
In a hundred years Tolkien will still be remembered and read. In Pullmans case , I doubt it.
Sorry Baylor - the future is a distant country - I'd hate to hazard a guess as to what is remembered well.

Walter Scott strode the start of the 19th century as a literary colossus who influenced practically every writer after him. They were so enamoured of him look at the massive pile of gothic stones that they built to commemorate his death: Scott Monument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They probably would be shocked at how marginalised and mostly forgotten he is today. Today we choose to remember different authors of the time.

Such fading could easily happen to Tolkien, who had nowhere near the same influence as Scott on literature.
 
They probably would be shocked at how marginalised and mostly forgotten he is today.
Not entirely, a few of Walter Scott's stories are still popular.
Fenimore Cooper thought Walter Scott's pirate story was very inaccurate, so wrote The Pilot. Walter Scott was a more populist writer with a lot of books than Tolkien, who is a bit like Marmite. I'm not sure who would be a better Authors to compare Tolkien and Pullman to. I mused the other day on another thread that we can't predict which writers of last 20 years (say 1995 to 2015) will be highly regarded or even if the period of time will be noteworthy at all for any genre.
 
But, Pullman is likely to fade in the public memory far, far faster than Tolkien will.
 
Tolkien and his work are a "sign of contradiction."

The man himself represents a tradition of learning -- namely philology -- that is rejected by, and/or out of the grasp of, mainstream scholarship today. They've dropped Beowulf and Old English from Oxford, unless you specifically want to specialize in them. Who any more grows up on Greek and Latin as Tolkien did? But the previous two sentences are only part of what I'm getting at. The very word "philology" will sound strange. Perhaps you get my drift. If curious, you should dig into the writings of Tom Shippey in order to glimpse more.

Tolkien's fantasy is rooted in the Western tradition, which increasingly is not handed on, not taught, but (mis)represented in terms of cliches about oppression of women, homosexuals, people of color, etc. I think people sometimes misread as simple escapist nostalgia what's really more important: the awareness that, for so much that nourishes heart, imagination, and intellect, the past is the treasure-house. In wholesome social arrangements the door of the treasure-house is open and people take what they need for themselves and their families, their audiences, etc. I'm referring to literature, visual art, religious culture, sound political institutions, and more. All of these are simultaneously to be guarded and to be used. But modern culture and education largely ignore or disparage the treasure-house and its contents.

That's not a very good analogy but maybe it gets at part of what should be said.

In my own field of English studies, the obsession is with raceclassandgender (including subsets such as postcolonialism, queer theory, etc.), the promulgated notions in each being hardwired with modern notions. The analogy I often refer to in my own mind is -- ketchup/catsup. Young people are trained to read always with raceclassandgender in mind. This means that everything they read, whether a novel by DeLillo or one of the Canterbury Tales, will be strongly flavored with this modern mass-produced substance. Ketchup can go well with some types of food, particularly modern mass-produced ones such as fastfood hamburgers and fries. Accustomed to, addicted to, theory, it is applied to everything, as if someone had to have ketchup also on Escargots à la Bourguignonne, Greenlip Mussels Provençale, Cold-Smoked French Herring with Warm Potato Salad and Greens, Pâté, Prosciutto, Fra’Mani Handcrafted Salumi,Mortadella, and Genoa Salami, etc. You are always to taste that modern ketchup!

So my sense is that the more thoroughly immersed a reader is in this characteristic modern obsession, or the more deferential someone is to its pieties, the more likely it is that he or she will disparage Tolkien's imaginative creation. Conversely, reading and assimilating Tolkien early on and then returning to it with increased understanding may tend to inoculate one against the raceclassandgender obsession. Jason Peters: "it seems to me that the truly and fully conscientious teacher will, at some point [perhaps not outright], say to his students: You found the novel dull? Let me tell you something: you do not judge this book; this book judges you. The teacher, in saying so, offers the remark as a gift, and the measure of his skill is in whether the remark is received as a gift."

The Lord of the Rings is not some treacly fantasy that enables well-fed bourgeois oppressors to soothe a few wasted hours. At least, rightly read, it is a challenge to our whole way of life, with its endless fidgeting with the "identity" we are creating for ourselves and liberating others to seek too, and to which sacred project all the resources of a gross and grossly-indebted state are to be offered. It's news from the real world. It's now a wake-up call to today's moderns, whose characteristic vice isn't greed or lust, though you might think so to watch our TV shows, but sloth. No wonder it is disliked by so many.

.
 
but (mis)represented in terms of cliches about oppression of women, homosexuals, people of color, etc. I think people sometimes misread as simple escapist nostalgia what's really more important: the awareness that, for so much that nourishes heart, imagination, and intellect, the past is the treasure-house.
Yes!
 
I always thought it was a story about hobbits, dwarves, elves, and men.
 

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