Historical Heroes

[svalbard]

Macbeth was the last true High King of Scotland or Alba as it was then known. Although you could argue that his step-son Lulach holds that honour.

 

[The Ace]

Macbeth was the last true High King of Scotland or Alba as it was then known. Although you could argue that his step-son Lulach holds that honour.

It was a bit more complicated than that;

Malcolm II (the Destroyer) was the last king of the house of Alpin. With no sons to succeed him, a legitimate successor was a problem for a king who wanted to establish a system of primogeniture, rather than the tanist system, which usually boiled down to knifing your cousin.

He therefore decreed that he would be succeeded by one of his grandsons, Macbeth Mac findlay, or Duncan mac Crinan (Crinan was the lay abbot of Dunkeld, after which the house was named).

By the time Malcolm died in 1034 (the chronicles hint at violence, but say nothing concrete) his successor was established as Duncan I (the Bad-Blooded), which turned out to be a poor choice. After four years of not making mistakes by not doing anything, Duncan rashly provoked both the English and the Vikings, and made a complete mess of things before, in 1040, attacking Macbeth's home unprovoked.

What was little more than a minor skirmish resulted in Duncan being wounded (some say by Macbeth himself), and bleeding out, and Macbeth was subsequently crowned with a national sigh of relief.

It's only fair to point out that Macbeth ruled Scotland fairly successfully for 17 years, being challenged only by Crinan (who died in the attempt), before losing out to Malcolm III Canmore in 1057.

The problem is that Malcolm's youngest son, David I, was the fourth great-grandfather of both John Balliol and Robert Bruce (one reason why the latter named his son David), and the ancestor of James VI and I, for whom Shakespeare wrote a certain play.

 

[The Ace]

Macbeth was the last true High King of Scotland or Alba as it was then known. Although you could argue that his step-son Lulach holds that honour.

Not really, it was Macolm III Canmore and his second wife, "Saint," Margaret who began the, "Modernisation," of Scotland (introduction of the Roman Church to displace the Celtic one, and experiments in feudalism), but it was their youngest son David I who picked it up and ran with it (the Norman ancestors of the Balliols, Douglasses, Bruces, and Stewarts were all brought to Scotland by David, not his father).

 

[Caledfwlch]

Is anyone here related to any Historical figures/heroes?

A family member has been doing the family tree for years, and discovered the family name of my paternal branch was changed 4 or 500 years ago. We have a surname that though English/Norman in relation is very common in Wales, where surnames did not used to exist. But before this name change, my ancestors surname was "Anwyl" one part of the family kept the name Anwyl, (and a load of wealth) whilst my part became farmers and tradesmen like Blacksmiths - there is a relation from around the 15th century who appears to have been exiled from Britain for "something or other" so it could be the name of our branch was changed to hide relationship to this guy.

What it means is we are direct descendents of the House of Aberffraw!

Or in other words, of King Owen Gwynedd, and the famous Princes of Gwynedd who fought the Normans, including Llewllyn ap Olaf.

 

[svalbard]

My family name is connected with physicians in 17th/18th century Ireland, with one of them ending up as Napoleon's personal physician, Barry Edward O'Meara. Of course my side of the O'Mearas ended up as labourers and alcoholics...

 

[Caledfwlch]

My family name is connected with physicians in 17th/18th century Ireland, with one of them ending up as Napoleon's personal physician, Barry Edward O'Meara. Of course my side of the O'Mearas ended up as labourers and alcoholics...

It's always the way! I have been diddled on both sides of the tree lol I don't know exactly where it came from, but on my Mother's side, my maternal Dadcu's (welsh grandfather) family appeared to be very, very well off, they were just rural farming types from the Montgomeryshire/Meirionydd border who moved south to Ceredigion - but I think the great grandfather bought a huge amount of land, which was eventually sold over the decades and added up to a very hefty sum, they were still left with a farm and a load of land, but even that was sold 15 or 20 years ago.

Even with my Grandfather being 1 of about 7 or 8 brothers and sisters, and all the obvious descendents from them as most of them have passed away by now there could be a big pay out for people, possibly over a million.

I don't understand half of what's been going on or is ongoing, but the great grandfather had a second wife, who lived until the 90's, and for various reasons and some family members attempting to rob others, its all locked up in probate and has been for around nearly 20 years. I don't know much about what is going on, but one or two nieces/and/or nephews (or great ones) appear to have gotten payouts of some sort, and nobody is sure exactly how that happened with everything being tied up in probate, most likely until lawyers fees eat it all up over the fighting. I suspect there may have been a bank account or two the Estate Executor/s didn't know about, but it's all very odd. I think there may not have been a Will, so the argument over inheritence is between birth siblings and step siblings, something like that, all I know is its massively complicated.

I wouldn't have minded a share of the sort of sums that could be involved!

From the maternal grandmother's side we have a Welsh Language Family bible from iirc the 1880's or 1890's, it's never been written in though, no births etc recorded, and it has full colour illustrations, beautifully done and each one protected by a preceeding sheet of thin tracing paper type stuff throughout, and I reckon it could well be worth a good few quid to a Collector, though never told the Mother as I suspect it would vanish - my Mamgu (welsh for grandmother) was in the Royal Artillery in the Second World War, and had a box of personal memorabilia, stuff like her ration card, all the uniform rank and regiment badges she had, and other's that she had collected, and several medals that she was awarded, and it has all "vanished" I went looking for the box as I wanted to photograph and scan the contents, for something to do, and as a way of being able to click them open and have a browse when I fancied. Right up until her death 14 years ago, my Mamgu would often have really bad nightmares about stuff she saw, as she did end up on the continent with her RA Unit post D Day, so she didn't like to look at the stuff often, it was very important to her, but also a reminder of the bad stuff, but very rarely she would sit with me and go through it explaining what everything was, and what it was for. I don't think she ever showed my 2 younger brothers. Not idiots or anything like that, they just wouldn't have appreciated what they were being shown, and would have just grabbed at stuff with grubby hands

In a way she is also a "historical" Heroine of mine, as are other family members. A Farm girl from rural Mid Wales who grew up not speaking much English, as even that recently many of her generation in the rural parts of Wales didn't hear or need to use English very often ended up doing her bit, manning Ack Ack Guns and the like, even crossing to the continent (I think the RA taught her fluent English. And as if that was not an amazing thing in itself, in the early 1950's she became the very first Women Police Constable in the Cardiganshire Constabulary! And at my mother's house, there are still her original handwritten notes from her training, a couple of A4 pads, and I think badges from her WPC Uniform were also in the box with the military stuff She eventually left the Police as apparently the sexism, it being the 1950's and a rural/small town force was unbearable.

Her Brother my Great Uncle Dafydd, who I could never keep my eyes off as a kid, because he had the most wonderful and huge Handlebar moustache, was in the Royal Navy's Submarine Service, and amongst his Service Medals he had a special one, and a certificate as he was on the Sub that evacuated the King and Crown Prince of Norway.

And my Father's Father, again from a rural background, though this time in Gwynedd, had the brains and got into Grammar School, but apprenticed as a Blacksmith & Farrier, was a huge man, 6ft something, and you can imagine the strength of a Blacksmith, and when WW2 broke out he had his own Smithy in a small town called Dolgellau, he immediately went to sign on and was refused as Blacksmithing was a "Reserved Occupation" like Farming and Mining. But he persevered, and with the help of the townsfolk doing petitions on his behalf he was finally accepted, and joined the first Commando force, iirc before it became attached to the Royal Marines, and 40 Commando/The Royal Marines Commando's came into existence. Later on, I think after an injury, he had a job teaching British Soldiers from different regions to understand each other, as of course, with stuff like radio being newish, people weren't used to regional accents, and to a degree regional dialects like we are now - plus they were a lot thicker then, most people in the UK these days understand some of the basic Yorkshire dialect from soap operas like Emmerdale "Owt, Nowt, Thee, goin t'shop" so if you stuck some soldiers from the Home Counties in with some South Welsh Valleys boys from the Rhondda, and Gwynedd (who alone would have trouble understanding each other, esp if the Gwynedd boys were rural, so not used to speaking English much) throw in a few Scousers, a Yorkshireman or two, and a couple of Geordies with an obligatory Glaswegian, and a Unit could have serious issues in communicating within itself - it's not something I have ever read anywhere about, I suppose it just gets overlooked, so was fascinated when my father told me about what my grandad did, after his time "Shooting in and out" of Continental Europe, with the Royal Navy's famous Adventure Travel Agency.

As well as that Welsh language family bible, there is also a much smaller Bible, again in Welsh, with an inscription plate written in English, given to my Mamgu's father in WW1 - it says something like "To John Lewis, Merry Christmas, Lieutenant such and such, The Somme 1916. (I think it's the Somme it says) We do have a photograph of the guy, which isn't clear enough to identify any unit flashes, plus it's a frontal photo, and know very little about him, but he is wearing this weird bandolier thing, and from my research, it was a Royal Artillery Uniform - this is not him, but its a very similar photo with identical uniform. History is amazing stuff!

 

[The Ace]

My mother's family are Stuarts - I've never felt any real inclination to investigate.

 

[BAYLOR]

My mother's family are Stuarts - I've never felt any real inclination to investigate.

Famous ancestors?

 

[BAYLOR]

Sir Alexander Flemming why? His discovery of Penicillin saved countless lives.

 

[The Ace]

Famous ancestors?

Or infamous, depends who you ask. Mary Stewart, Queen of Scots, adopted the spelling because there's no. "W," in the French language (even now, it only occurs in foreign words). Her son, James VI/I continued the tradition, and it lasted until Queen Anne, last of the Stuart Monarchs (history would gladly forget Charles Edward Stuart, "Bonnie Prince Charlie,").

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I studied Archaeology at what was then King Alfred's College. I share an ancestor with Anne Boleyn and Katharine Howard but that's about the only interesting kink in my family history. And I went to school with a view of the castle they think King Duncan died in (they've since moved the school) and back in the dim and distant past Alexander Graham Bell taught deaf children in their section of the school.

Newson Garrett and Louisa Dunnell have always intrigued me - they were the parents of Millicent Garrett Fawcett (leader of the suffragists) and Elizabeth Garrett Anderson (first female doctor, mayor etc) And one of their other daughters were the first interior designer (I think Alice but I could be wrong).

 

[BAYLOR]

What about T E Lawrence?

 

[Caledfwlch]

Winston Churchill often scores high in "Greatest Briton" polls, but that I think is usually by young people who have been given a sugar coated saviour figure - Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill was an absolute *******, thankfully, he was our *******, and at the time, we needed a ******* leading the Nation at War. in the 20's or 30's, what we now know as Iraq was under British "Protection" there were troubles with villages not paying their taxes, so Churchill suggested using gas warfare, such mustard gas shells delivered by plane or artillery, as punishment, against a select few in order to terrify the others into line.

Yeah, in spite of the horrors of what it did in WW1 he actually considered using mustard gas bombs/shells against a civil population which of course had children. Dude was seriously messed up.

 

[thaddeus6th]

He saved Britain, and arguably the world, from Nazi dominion. That achievement eclipses whatever else he did.

In the same way, Alexander pacified the Bactrian rebellion by killing most of them, and slew one of his own friends in a drunken rage (admittedly, he was provoked, but still). Caesar committed a holocaust (the precise word used by TA Dodge) against Germanian tribes seeking to negotiate a peaceful settlement, killing vast numbers.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

usually by young people who have been given a sugar coated saviour figure

Before the WWII, the Government got him banned from BBC. Churchill was first major instigator of "electronic" (Telegraph and Radio) surveillance even before WWI. I think he was first Lord of Admiralty. He also formulated the attacks on German civilians and destruction of Dresden as revenge. After WWII, the electorate ditched him.
He also prior to 1930s wrote an Enoch Powell style anti-muslim "rivers of blood" essay or speech.

 

[BAYLOR]

Before the WWII, the Government got him banned from BBC. Churchill was first major instigator of "electronic" (Telegraph and Radio) surveillance even before WWI. I think he was first Lord of Admiralty. He also formulated the attacks on German civilians and destruction of Dresden as revenge. After WWII, the electorate ditched him.
He also prior to 1930s wrote an Enoch Powell style anti-muslim "rivers of blood" essay or speech.

I think even Winston Churchill would agree that he's not a candidate for sainthood. But then again, try imagining what a world without him would have been like.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

But then again, try imagining what a world without him would have been like.

Might not have been much different. UK wasn't going to roll over and die. The RAF coupled with bad German decisions stalemated the German invasion plans. Russia was going to attack Germany anyway, maybe less than a year after Germany attacked Russia.
If Russia hadn't entered the war, the UK would be speaking Germany today.
If USA hadn't entered the war, then Western Europe would be speaking Russian today.

Really almost nothing in the medium term depends on one person.

 

[Caledfwlch]

Might not have been much different. UK wasn't going to roll over and die. The RAF coupled with bad German decisions stalemated the German invasion plans. Russia was going to attack Germany anyway, maybe less than a year after Germany attacked Russia.
If Russia hadn't entered the war, the UK would be speaking Germany today.
If USA hadn't entered the war, then Western Europe would be speaking Russian today.

Really almost nothing in the medium term depends on one person.

Sealion or any of its ilk was never going to fly, regardless of the RAF, the main block was the Germans had nothing capable of taking on the Royal Navy's Home Fleet and destroying it - I suppose it's possible that had someone other than Churchill been in charge, that person may not have taken the difficult decision to annihilate the surrendered French Fleet, to deny it to the Germans, which would perhaps have given the Kriegsmarine a lot more punch against the RN.

It's actually the second time Britain has done something like that - in 1807 Britain invaded neutral Denmark to destroy its naval fleet, as France and Russia were putting tremendous pressure on the Danes to hand it over to Napoleon, and there was a risk of France simply invading and taking it.

 

[BAYLOR]

Sealion or any of its ilk was never going to fly, regardless of the RAF, the main block was the Germans had nothing capable of taking on the Royal Navy's Home Fleet and destroying it - I suppose it's possible that had someone other than Churchill been in charge, that person may not have taken the difficult decision to annihilate the surrendered French Fleet, to deny it to the Germans, which would perhaps have given the Kriegsmarine a lot more punch against the RN.

It's actually the second time Britain has done something like that - in 1807 Britain invaded neutral Denmark to destroy its naval fleet, as France and Russia were putting tremendous pressure on the Danes to hand it over to Napoleon, and there was a risk of France simply invading and taking it.

Dowd and Parks had built up a very effective air defense For Britain, there was no way that the German Air force was wining the Battle of Britain with the strategy they employed.

If the Germany had gotten the French fleet that would have effectively given them control of the Mediterranean sea and that made the African Campaign and a number other places impossible for Britain.

If Lord Halifax had been incharge wouldn't he have likely decides to cut a peace deal with Germany ?

 

[mosaix]

Allan Turing.